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Galway
01-11-2011, 03:49 PM
It's that time of year again, we can start adding names to the 2011 class of the WWE Hall of Fame. And the first person announced this year couldn't possibly be any bigger.

The legendary "Heartbreak Kid" Shawn Michaels was announced on the January 11 edition of "Monday Night Raw" as the first inductee into the elite group of some of wrestling's finest athletes. HBK will join the likes of Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Bobby Heenan, Curt Hennig, Gorilla Monsoon, and many of the history making stars throughout the years.

The WWE Hall of Fame ceremony typically takes place the night before the annual WrestleMania extravaganza, and then the entire class for that year is brought out in front of the often sold-out Mania crowd for the fans to show their admiration and respect for the men that helped pave the way for many of today's superstars.

Michaels began his career in 1984, and before long was rising to the top of the tag team division of the now-defunct AWA promotion. He was a part of a team known then as the Midnight Rockers, alongside Marty Jannetty. Together, The Rockers claimed the AWA Tag Team Titles on several occasions, having well-documented feuds with Buddy Rose and Doug Somers. Then they moved on to what was then known as the World Wrestling Federation (WWF), where Jannetty had limited success. However it would be Michaels that would turn out to be the breakout megastar.

Michaels meteoric rise to the top began after he and Jannetty on-screen split in early 1992. From there, building Intercontinental Championships, six Tag Team Titles (with four different partners, none of which was Jannetty), a run with the European Title, one World Title reign, and three WWE Championships. All of that gave him the distinction of being the first ever Grand Slam Champion, and the fourth Triple Crown winner. According to Wikipedia, there have been 21 Triple Crown Champions, and 10 Grand Slam Champions.

Michaels was also credited for co-founding the controversial group known as DeGeneration X. Together with Triple H, the two pushed the limit on television every week to see what they could get away with. They were obnoxious and arrogant, but also one of the most widely-followed factions of the modern era. DX would be realigned after Michaels went into a period of retirement back in 1998. Michaels returned 1999 to have a brief feud with the group while he was the "Commissioner" of the WWF. Then, after he was fired on-screen by the Chairman, Vince McMahon, Michaels would not return until 2002 when he came back to defeat Triple H in a streetfight at SummerSlam.

DX has been reunited a couple of times since, but Michaels has found ways to reinvent himself to keep his legacy fresh. At the 25th Anniversary of WrestleMania in 2009, Michaels challenged The Undertaker to a match in Houston, Texas. The Undertaker was notorious for his undefeated streak, which stayed alive after he defeated Michaels in what many called the match of the decade.

Then in 2010, Michaels wanted one more shot at The Undertaker's streak. During the 2009 Slammy Awards, Michaels won his record-shattering 11th Slammy Award (for the Wrestlemania match) and challenged the streak one more time. The Undertaker initially denied Michaels' request for the match, but after weeks of back and forth confrontations, The Undertaker granted Michaels his rematch. However the stipulation was that if Michaels lost, he would be forced to retire. They agreed on the match, and at WrestleMania 26 in Arizona, they went to war one more time. The match rivaled their encounter from a year prior, keeping the fans on their feet throughout the match. But in the end, it was Michaels that gave a wakeup slap to The Undertaker and fell victim to a Tombstone for the second consecutive year.

Since his retirement, Michaels has embarked on a new hunting experience that according to him, will spawn a television series scheduled for sometime in 2011. With the announcement that he will be inducted into the 2011 WWE Hall of Fame, it will cap off an impressive 20-plus year career that has landed him on every corner of the earth and achieved nearly every major accomplishment in the industry. Congratulations are highly in order for one of the most deserving superstars to ever grace the squared circle

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ycn-7506120

The GOAT HBK:hail:

BDUB
01-11-2011, 03:53 PM
Easily a first ballot guy. One of the greatest. :hail:

Who else is up for induction?

TommyGunn
01-11-2011, 04:08 PM
:hail: The GOAT

Galway
01-11-2011, 10:12 PM
ZNLQF-LhO6w

BDUB
01-11-2011, 10:19 PM
The king! :hail:

Lenny
01-11-2011, 10:37 PM
Michaels :wank:

Never in the month of Sundays the GOAT. COuldnt draw for starters. Exceptionally talented individual, but ruined his time at the top by being an ego driven junkie.

FWIW, the Shawn who came back a few years ago was a class act. But the Shawn back in the day was a wrong un and that shjould never be forgotten.

BDUB
01-11-2011, 10:44 PM
Michaels :wank:

Never in the month of Sundays the GOAT. COuldnt draw for starters. Exceptionally talented individual, but ruined his time at the top by being an ego driven junkie.

FWIW, the Shawn who came back a few years ago was a class act. But the Shawn back in the day was a wrong un and that shjould never be forgotten.

This is blasphemy Father! :hand:

Lenny
01-11-2011, 10:48 PM
Nope, im a big wrestling fan (old wrestling not new shit) and absolutly love wrestling history, wrestling books are by far and away best thing you can ever read.

General concensous amongst past wrestliers is the Shawn in the 90s was a egomaniac primadona prick, who lacked respect for the business and other wrestlers.

Shawn who came back in early 2000s was a new guy who put young guys over, that guy desetrves alot of respect.

And fact,Shawn didnt draw when he was champ. In ring was great, but not the greatest either. Certainly not Flair either.

BDUB
01-11-2011, 10:52 PM
Nope, im a big wrestling fan (old wrestling not new shit) and absolutly love wrestling history, wrestling books are by far and away best thing you can ever read.

General concensous amongst past wrestliers is the Shawn in the 90s was a egomaniac primadona prick, who lacked respect for the business and other wrestlers.

Shawn who came back in early 2000s was a new guy who put young guys over, that guy desetrves alot of respect.

And fact,Shawn didnt draw when he was champ. In ring was great, but not the greatest either. Certainly not Flair either.

Who cares? It was his wrestling persona. What they wanted him to be and he was the best at it. :hail:

Lenny
01-11-2011, 10:55 PM
wrong, it wasnt his Persona, it was the real person. the one back stage and real life.

Also, wasnt the best at it, numbers show when Shawn was champ the figures fell, rose when Bret was champ and dropped when Shawn was.. :wave:

Stone Cold saved WWE, saved wrestling and is the biggest draw of all time. Shawn dont get close to what Stone Cold achieved.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 12:15 AM
How many times has Shawn headlined wrestlemania? :cop:

Much bigger draw than Naitch ever was :laugh:

Elephant Man
01-12-2011, 01:18 AM
He deserves it....a great wrestler and character

:hand:Hes no fukkin Naitch though

Galway
01-12-2011, 01:46 AM
More matches of the Year than anyone else in history :hail:

Missed over 4 years of his prime with a broken back, told he would never wrestle again but came back better than ever :hail:

Sexiest man I've ever seen :hail:

Hall of Fame Heartbreak Kid :hail:

E-DUBB
01-12-2011, 02:13 AM
i hate to be the bearer of bad news but like him or hate him,hulk hogan is the muhammad ali of pro wrestling...outside of vince mcmahon,nobody is more responsible for making wrestling the billion dollar business it has become than hulk hogan...

so if your criteria for greatness is popularity,who draws more,who was the biggest headliner and who made wrestling the most money...than hulk is head and shoulders above everybody else in those categories...even non wrestling fans no who hulk hogan is...

wrestlemania was built because of the popularity of hulk hogan...hulk is "mr. wrestlemania"...

that being said,even though i was a much bigger fan of hulk hogan as a kid...imo,ric flair is the greatest wrestler of all time...

Elephant Man
01-12-2011, 02:23 AM
i hate to be the bearer of bad news but like him or hate him,hulk hogan is the muhammad ali of pro wrestling...outside of vince mcmahon,nobody is more responsible for making wrestling the billion dollar business it has become than hulk hogan...

so if your criteria for greatness is popularity,who draws more,who was the biggest headliner and who made wrestling the most money...than hulk is head and shoulders above everybody else in those categories...even non wrestling fans no who hulk hogan is...

wrestlemania was built because of the popularity of hulk hogan...hulk is "mr. wrestlemania"...

that being said,even though i was a much bigger fan of hulk hogan as a kid...imo,ric flair is the greatest wrestler of all time...

As a wrestler Hulk was abysmal but like you said,the man changed Wresting forever and even people who hate it know who he is.

:hail:Naitch

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 09:37 AM
Steve Austin = the saviour of WWE and one of the greatest for his run from 1996-2002.

At one stage he was the biggest draw, the best on the mic, the most entertaining in the ring (as he could brawl and wrestle), the most marketable. He was everything rolled up into one. He is hands down the greatest of all time.

Shawn wasn't a draw. He's grossly overrated just because he was great in the ring. He was just a bitch who played politics to hold people back when the fact is he wasn't really that big a star to play politics. He played politics to stop British Bulldog winning the title back in 1995.


Hulk Hogan = the biggest name of all time though. He is quite simply one of the most marketable men in the history of SPORT. He transcended wrestling. He was great on the mic, incredible marketable, a HUGE DRAW. HE's the greatest of all time based on that.


ON a side note I thought it was supposed to be a WCW themed Hall of Fame since it's supposed to be in Georgia? That sucks. Was looking forward to seeing the old WCW guys back together getting inducted.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 09:54 AM
Everyone hating on Shawn for being a "non draw"

Nobody is out-drawing WCW and NWO when they were at their hottest, not Austin, not Rocky, not anybody.

You just have to look at how many times Shawns name topped the bill at Mania to see how big he was.

If it wasnt for HBK WWE wouldnt be around today. He carried the whole company on his back then and everyone turning on WWF was turning on to see Shawn.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 11:45 AM
Tommy, no offence mate but thats pants :laugh:

Fact, Stone Cold is the saviour of Vince and WWE, something VInce and every wrester, fan and writer will all agree on. Not Shawn. 100% not Shawn. Vince,Bischoff and many others have publically said this.

Shawns name topped the bill purely down the politics tommy, him and Hunter got themselves onto the booking committee for fuck sake, you have to know the history of Shawn backstage and the politics at the time?

When its said he wasnt a draw, when shawn was champ, viewing figures fell, when he dropped the belt and bret took it back,brets reign drew more figures and did get close if not surpass WCW for a time i cant remember exactly. again this is a 100% undeniable fact. its in black and white for everyone to see.

DX was a big draw during attitude era, agreed, but NWO was far more popular, if it wasnt for Stone cold there would be no WWE anymore, something which is again factual.

I not underplaying Shawns role in the WWe but you aint basing what your saying on facts only as a fan. Shawn was not a draw as champ, sorry but that is true. He was not the saviour of WWE, again not true. Stone Cold, Rocky, Mick Foley, Taker, are more responsbile than Shawn. Stone Cold above all saved WWE, Vince has said so TOm and i think he knows his stuff :laugh:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 11:48 AM
Steve Austin = the saviour of WWE and one of the greatest for his run from 1996-2002.

At one stage he was the biggest draw, the best on the mic, the most entertaining in the ring (as he could brawl and wrestle), the most marketable. He was everything rolled up into one. He is hands down the greatest of all time.

Shawn wasn't a draw. He's grossly overrated just because he was great in the ring. He was just a bitch who played politics to hold people back when the fact is he wasn't really that big a star to play politics. He played politics to stop British Bulldog winning the title back in 1995.


Hulk Hogan = the biggest name of all time though. He is quite simply one of the most marketable men in the history of SPORT. He transcended wrestling. He was great on the mic, incredible marketable, a HUGE DRAW. HE's the greatest of all time based on that.


ON a side note I thought it was supposed to be a WCW themed Hall of Fame since it's supposed to be in Georgia? That sucks. Was looking forward to seeing the old WCW guys back together getting inducted.

Again, all facts. :thumb:

I love the Shawn who came back after few years out, he was greazt for the business. the Shawn during the 90s politiced his way to the top and stayed there through politics, was hated by the other wrestlers back stage because of his politics and prima donna behaviour. hated. He didnt carry the WWE, no chance.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 12:00 PM
"Nobody ever in company history was a bigger drawing card or merchandise seller then he was at his peak".- Dave meltzer on STone Cold, meltzer cant be argued with, he is the God of wrestling knowledge

Lenny
01-12-2011, 12:07 PM
Also, dont get me wrong ,neither Bret nor Shawn were massive draws during their reign and i get the fact that there were circumstances outside their control(NWO etc.) that played a part, but Bret drew more than Shawn and Bret was never the biggest draw in wrestling.

I aint hating on Shawn, but people who say he is the GOAT need to delve further into the history of Wrestling, he aint.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 12:09 PM
Tommy, no offence mate but thats pants :laugh:

Fact, Stone Cold is the saviour of Vince and WWE, something VInce and every wrester, fan and writer will all agree on. Not Shawn. 100% not Shawn. Vince,Bischoff and may others have publically said this. You're missing the point......Before Austin was in WWE and WCW was kicking their arse who was the guy who carried the company? :laugh:

If Shawn hadnt carried the company so well their would have been no WWF for Austin to go into.

Would Austin have beat WCW and NWO if he was in Shawns shoes with a weak roster? Obviously the answer is no. To say Shawn wasnt drawing is foolish. He single handedly kept WWF afloat during the Monday Night Wars. Shawn was the guy every WWF fan tuned in to see. That makes him a mega draw.

You seriously cant turn around and say he was a shit draw because he was against WCW and NWO, thats utterly foolish.



Shawns name topped the bill purely down the politics tommy, him and Hunter got themselves onto the booking committee for fuck sake, you have to know the history of Shawn backstage and the politics at the timeIve probably forget more about wrestling than most know. I do know one thing though, anyone who knows Wrestling knows HBK was a gret draw. :laugh:


When its said he wasnt a draw, when shawn was champ, viewing figures fell, when he dropped the belt and bret took it back, brets reign drew more figures and did get close if not surpass WCW for a time i cant remember exactly. again this is a 100% undeniable fact. its in black and white for everyone to see.Why did viewing figures fall though? :rofl:




DX was a big draw during attitude era, agreed, but NWO was far more popular, if it wasnt for Stone cold there would be no WWE anymore, something which is again factual. No doubt NWO were the massive draw.....Theres no WWF for Austin to go to though without HBK carrying the company thru WCW's peak.


I not underplaying Shawns role in the WWe but you aint basing what your saying on facts only as a fan. Shawn was not a draw as champ, sorry but that is true. He was not the saviour of WWE, again not true. Stone Cold, Rocky, Mick Foley, Taker, are more responsbile than Shawn. Stone Cold above all saved WWE, Vince has said so TOm and i think he knows his stuff :laugh:Again, was that down to Shawn? And tell me one ATG you could replace Shawn with and they would have beat WCW and NWO.

I'll be waiting :wave:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 12:11 PM
Also along with Stone Cold, VInce and his on screen character played a massive role in the WWEs saving. The character vince became after the real life Montreal screw job played a massive massive role in the WWEs return to the top.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 12:19 PM
again tommy your talking pants.

Shawn retired in 98.

monday night wars carried on till 2001.

Bret drew more than Shawn when bret was champ than when shawn was champ, it aint difficult to understand, bret drew more with the fans. fact :wave:

Bret and Shawn were the top to stars, Bret left in 97 and was top man in the company till he left, again pissed on your notion shawn "carried" the company he didnt.Bret and Shawn we biggest stars in WWF at the time. again fact :cop:

Austins rise to superstardom began in 96 at King of the Ring and his war with Vince began in 97 again, Stone Cold carried the WWe thereafter. Shawn wasnt even wrestling through the rise of the WWF during the wars.

I know your a massive Shawn fan, but your not posting sense. Stone COld is universally recognised with savin the WWE, he is the highest drawing star of all time. He carried the company, with rock, FOley and Taker, seeing as Shawn was retired after 98 :wave:

all facts mate. like i say i aint pissing on shawn but your posting as a fan, oh in respose to why viewing figures fell, they fell when Shawn had the belt and rose when Bret had it. Doesnt take rocket science to figure that out tom.

If you want to rewrite the history of wrestling go ahead, but atleast make it factual. :laugh:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 12:25 PM
HBK wasnt a great drwn though tom, i aint making it up man. its a fucking fact. buyrates and viewing figures contradict what you have to say. if you wanna make up new facts go ahead but at least give me something out that "Anyone who knows wrestling knows HBK was a great draw" because he wasnt, neither was Bret.(although Bret worldwide was a massive draw, huge in Europe and Canada as opposed to Shawn, who wasnt)


Metzlers awards he was to Stone cold during the MNW.
* PWI Feud of the Year (1998, 1999) vs. Vince McMahon
* PWI Match of the Year (1997) vs. Bret Hart at WrestleMania 13 in a Submission match
* PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year (1998)
* PWI Wrestler of the Year (1998, 1999, 2001)
* PWI ranked #1 of the Top 500 singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 1998 and 1999

PWI is pro wrestling insider.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 12:26 PM
I not underplaying Shawns role in the WWe but you aint basing what your saying on facts only as a fan. Shawn was not a draw as champ, sorry but that is true. He was not the saviour of WWE, again not true. Stone Cold, Rocky, Mick Foley, Taker, are more responsbile than Shawn. Stone Cold above all saved WWE, Vince has said so TOm and i think he knows his stuff
Again, was that down to Shawn? And tell me one ATG you could replace Shawn with and they would have beat WCW and NWO.

I'll be waiting

Stone Cold replaced him in 98 and carried the company back to the top and destroyed WCW :wave: :owned:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 12:37 PM
Just to claify before people get their knickers in a twist at what im saying.

Shawn was great for wrestling and will go down as one of the greatest of all time, just not close to the GOAT.

Both BRet and Shawn were not huge draws compared to WCW 95-97, but both bret and shawn carried the company, madness to say shawn carried it more than bret and vica versa.

VInce and everyone who has ever spoken about MNW, widely acknowledge SCSA saved WWE.

Its all about opinions and I respect each and everyones opinion here and aint going to fall out with anyone over wrestling, but I love wrestling and wrestling history, ill watch any wrestling doc(best sports docs available) and will read any wrestlers book(best bios ever-even read Shawns, he came off as a prick,genuinly he did, no hate) and although it gets a bad name it is by far and away the most mysterious, amazing story behind it, especially the backstage stories compared to what you see how they act on TV and what you know of them now, its facinating but also totally open to debate.

TOm, before we go further, totally respect your opinion dude, but totally disagree too :laugh: :thumb:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 01:54 PM
again tommy your talking pants.

Shawn retired in 98.

monday night wars carried on till 2001. Nitro peaked in 96 though :rofl:

96 was the year Michaels was on top.

I'm not talking out my pants its 100%. No other wrestler leading the company could have kept the viewing numbers up going against peak NWO, nobody.


Bret drew more than Shawn when bret was champ than when shawn was champ, it aint difficult to understand, bret drew more with the fans. fact :wave:

Bret and Shawn were the top to stars, Bret left in 97 and was top man in the company till he left, again pissed on your notion shawn "carried" the company he didnt.Bret and Shawn we biggest stars in WWF at the time. again fact :cop:Brett wasnt the top guy back then, Michaels was the star, the main event guy. Bretts numbers as champ may have been bigger but Shawn was going against peak NWO. I'll ask again, who could have beat NWO back then?


Austins rise to superstardom began in 96 at King of the Ring and his war with Vince began in 97 again, Stone Cold carried the WWe thereafter. Shawn wasnt even wrestling through the rise of the WWF during the wars.What the hell are you talking about, it was Shawn who put Austin over for his first title in Sept 97 when WCW was starting to slide :rofl:


I know your a massive Shawn fan, but your not posting sense. Stone COld is universally recognised with savin the WWE, he is the highest drawing star of all time. He carried the company, with rock, FOley and Taker, seeing as Shawn was retired after 98 :wave:You're still missing the point. I'm not disputing what sort of draw Austin was i'm saying before that Shawn was on top during the peak of WCW and he alone was carrying the company. Shawn was the main event guy thru 96, he was the guy who came out to close Raw. Everyone thinks because WWF viewing figures wernt good that Shawn couldnt draw and its moronic....The only reason they were down is because WCW had a much better brand.


all facts mate. like i say i aint pissing on shawn but your posting as a fan, oh in respose to why viewing figures fell, they fell when Shawn had the belt and rose when Bret had it. Doesnt take rocket science to figure that out tom.blah blah blah. You're comparing numbers when WWF was almost buried which is laughable.


If you want to rewrite the history of wrestling go ahead, but atleast make it factual. :laugh:I'm not re-writing anything, just using common sense. Michaels not being a draw is a myth because of whats going on in WCW.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 02:06 PM
Excellant article that proves my point...


Whilst Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart were the two undoubted main star's of their generation neither of them was actually the biggest draw of that era as neither man drew as much as Kevin Nash did as Diesel. I was actually reading some articles from "The New Generation" era a couple of weeks ago and in them it showed that WWEhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://www.wrestlingforum.com/#) was doing horribly as far as ratings and PPV buyrates go back then in comparison to just before Bret Hart became WWF champion for the first time but the ratings and PPV buyrates picked up once Kevin Nash had won the WWF title and Shawn Michaels had moved into the main event scene.

I didn't look far enough into it to see what the ratings and PPV buyrates were like for the whole year that Kevin Nash was WWF champion but up until at least the summer the ratings and buyrates were up with Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels being pushed as the top two wrestler's rather than Bret Hart and Owen Hart from the year before that so take from that what you will. I know that in Shawn Michaels main year as top guy in 1996 WWE did the worst numbers they had for years but Vince McMahon has always said that it was because of WCW doing the whole NWO storyline which no one could have done anything against.

Vince McMahon, Jim Ross and Triple H have all said on numerous occasions had it not been for Shawn Michaels being the best in the world back then things would have been much worse for WWE but people still watched Raw and bought PPV's with Shawn Michaels as the main man because they knew how great the main event would be if nothing else. That is the main difference between Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart as Bret Hart didn't have anything like The New World Order against him and WWE were on top until May 1996 which was a month after Shawn Michaels had won the WWF title at WrestleMania 12.

Because of how different the whole landscape was in Bret Hart's run as the main man and Shawn Michaels run as main man due to WCW being a much bigger promotion because of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash "invading" WCW and then the Hulk Hogan heel turn when Shawn Michaels was on top it is completely impossible to honestly answer for anyone. If you are a Bret Hart fan you will say Bret Hart and if you are a Shawn Michaels fan you would say Shawn Michaels but we will never know because of The New World Order although it is a known fact that once Shawn Michaels turned heel and formed D-Generation X the gap in the ratings was starting to close and WWE were selling out all their show's whilst WCW couldn't so whilst it may have not been seen on tv (http://www.wrestlingforum.com/#) yet WWE were doing better than WCW/NWO in terms of drawing people in to watch live with Shawn Michaels on top.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 02:56 PM
you do realise i could find articles in the contrary dont you Pro Bret Hart articles? like i said all about opinions.This wouldnt of happened to of been written pre Bret and Vince making up would it?

Shawn put stone cold over launched Stone Cold? Bullshit. A monkey could of fought Steve then and it would of catipulted him, SHawn had no choice Steve was beyond over.

His match with Bret at WM 13 launched Steve his fued with Bret before that was special also and launched him, something he will say himself, Him winning KOTR launched Austin 3:16, Austin beating Shawn isnt as important as u like to make out, he was already most over guy in the company by a mile.

Shawn had a "knee" injurt at WM 13 (refused to drop the belt to Bret). Bret was just resigned to the biggest deal Vince ever gave a arestler in 96, 20 year deal. ( not top guy still then no :rofl: )

Nitro only went up against Raw at end of 95 so to say it peaked in 96 is way off, Raw didnt regain the ratings till mid- 98 IIRC. and they were competitve through to mid 99.

Also between 95-97, Bret and Shawn both held the strap 3 times each, so to say Shawn was top guy and Bret no longer was is madness. Bret also formed the new foundation in this period and had the anti america campaign which was huge.

I aint missing your point, your missing mine. I aint pissing on Shawn(well i am some what) but you saying Shawn was solely responsible is madness, Bret was huge then, huge. As equal a star as Shawn if not more so. It cant be denied.And Buyrates and viewing figures do matter, if im sayign shawn didnt drawn and they fell during his reign it matters, just like when i say they rose during brets it matters.

It aint all down to WCW/NWO tom, the one who held the strap at the time counts too. It matters WWE werent on top till may 96, they had a 2month period they were on top, march to may, prior and after it was up and down.
Dont get me wrong, Bret wasnt a mega draw either( for the millionth time in saying so) but neither was Shawn. Its aint up for debate.

and both are greater in GOAT race than Flair imo. I accept your point Shawn helped keep WWE alive during the bad times, but Bret sure as fuck did too, especially when you consider Shawns biggest feuds were with bret :laugh:

also Nitro didnt slide in early 97, the continued to kick WWEs ass for another year, when Stone cold finally destroyed them.

Must also credit rock, makind, taker and the entire attidude era for this too., including DX who were great for business.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 03:01 PM
I'll take Vince and JR's word about how Shawns numnbers were low over any article you post.

Bretts numbers were shit and Shawns numbers were shit. Shawn was going against a better brand in WCW, Brett wasnt.

You are simply refusing to accept Shawns low numbers were due to WCW, i'm not sure why you are refusing to accept this but it is what it is.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 03:07 PM
Because in the 2 year perioud both Shawn and Bret were champions 2 times each, how the fuck can you say brets were shit because of bret while shaws were shit cos of WCW, come on dude thats not adding up.

Added to which they both feuded with each other alot, so dont see how you can find a way to differentiate it.

seriously tom, it doesnt. Both were going against a top brand, bret was champ when he left sure against WCW at its heights too :laugh:

your the one who refuses to accept it. Ive said all along bret was never a great draw, but neither was shawn.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 03:13 PM
Brett dont get any credit for 96-97 numbers that was all Shawn....Sure others had the strap in the time but who was the guy in the ME they were always fueding with? Brett was not always in the ME, Shawn was regardless if he had the strap or not. Brett was done by then.....He was boring as fuck and his failure in WCW proves this. Shawn goes to WCW he improves the brand further. Brett was peak from around 92-95.

Shawn was the guy Vince gave the ball to while the company was in trouble and Shawn carried them.

Vince says himself WWF would have been in trouble without Shawn, its not hard to understand.

Galway
01-12-2011, 03:21 PM
Here's how it is:

Hulk Hogan invented wrestling

Stone Cold was the most popular wrestler of all time, and by far the biggest draw

Shawn Michaels was an arrogant cock, who also happened to be the greatest in ring performer of all time

All depends on what your criteria for GOAT is. You could mean in ring performance, you could the guy who made it what it is today and brought it into mainstream media, or you could mean drawing power & viewing figures while at peak.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 03:22 PM
bret held belt from nov 95 till march 96, shawn held it then for 6 months. bret got it again in 97, come on tom you cant dismiss bret as no draw because of bret and shawn because of wcw. they were both up against wcw man. both had same problems. bret was actually off telly for some of 96 so i agree shawns failure in 96 was toally down to shawn :laugh: you cant credit shawn and give bret none, they were the top guys in the company at the time.

oh and bret and shawn carried WM 12 with their iron man match, bret was then the main event for WM13 v Stone cold which stone cold credits as his greatest match of all time. so in that period,bret main evented 2 WM, shawn 1 and that was with bret :laugh:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 03:24 PM
We need a wreslingasylum to discuss this properly on :stir:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 03:25 PM
Here's how it is:

Hulk Hogan invented wrestling

Stone Cold was the most popular wrestler of all time, and by far the biggest draw

Shawn Michaels was an arrogant cock, who also happened to be the greatest in ring performer of all time

All depends on what your criteria for GOAT is. You could mean in ring performance, you could the guy who made it what it is today and brought it into mainstream media, or you could mean drawing power & viewing figures while at peak.

in your opinion shawn was greatest in ring performer, many say bret was, some say dynamite kid was and some say guys in japan were, hell some nuggets say the warrior was, at end of day, its all about our opinions.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 03:45 PM
Im all ears eddie :cop:

Galway
01-12-2011, 03:47 PM
Shawn came back after a broken back, after the doctors telling him he would never wrestle again, years past his physical prime, and won Match of the Year for 7 Straight Years. Look at some of his opponents in those matches too - John Cena, Vince McMahon, 60 year old Ric Flair. The man is a miracle worker :laugh:

Obviously it's just my opinion, but I always preferred watching Shawn over Bret. I thought he was more versatile and added more variation to his matches. He was more willing to put in spots too.

My top 5 would be:
1. Shawn Michaels
2. Bret Hart
3. Chris Benoit
4. Kurt Angle
5. Ricky The Dragon Steamboat

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 04:55 PM
Sorry Tommy.. but Shawn put Austin over? :rofl:

Come on. Austin was so far over that it was either put the belt on him or drop the ball and fail as a company. Steve Austin was second only to Sting in 1997 in terms of merchandise and that was only because of how well the WCW built up the Hogan/Sting matchup for Starrcade '97.

Steve Austin is the most popular wrestler of all time. The numbers he did and the merchandise he sold in the late 90s.. nobody comes close to it. It's that simple. Austin was the best thing the WWF could have ever asked for. He was extremely popular without ever really being a babyface.

Michaels is overrated as hell. He was politicking bitch who was bitter at the fact that he was NEVER a huge superstar.

And do you want to know what a bitch he really was? He DIDN'T WANT TO PUT AUSTIN OVER AT WRESTLEMANIA 14. Kevin Kelley told the story of how Undertaker sat near the curtain's the entire duration of the match and before hand said to Shawn something along the lines of (in a more eloquently put way.. but I'm going off memory as to what he said) "either you put Steve over or I'll drop your ass".

the heart bitch kid didn't want to put Austin over. He never wanted to put over the most over name in the business.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 04:59 PM
That is complete and utter BS, Shawn put Austin over cause he was taking time out of wrestling because of his back :rofl:

And if we're gonna bring Merchandise up as being a draw......Look how much DX have sold over the years :laugh:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 05:02 PM
bret held belt from nov 95 till march 96, shawn held it then for 6 months. bret got it again in 97, come on tom you cant dismiss bret as no draw because of bret and shawn because of wcw. they were both up against wcw man. both had same problems. bret was actually off telly for some of 96 so i agree shawns failure in 96 was toally down to shawn :laugh: you cant credit shawn and give bret none, they were the top guys in the company at the time.

oh and bret and shawn carried WM 12 with their iron man match, bret was then the main event for WM13 v Stone cold which stone cold credits as his greatest match of all time. so in that period,bret main evented 2 WM, shawn 1 and that was with bret :laugh:Titles swap hands all the time but the main event guy stays the main event guy. Who was the guy in the main event with the guys who had the strap back then, it wasnt Brett it was Shawn. :rofl:

As Vince said......No Shawn, WWF failed much worse. Not my words there Vinces :laugh:

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 05:21 PM
That is complete and utter BS, Shawn put Austin over cause he was taking time out of wrestling because of his back :rofl:

And if we're gonna bring Merchandise up as being a draw......Look how much DX have sold over the years :laugh:

Those were words coming from Kevin Kelley's mouth himself. It was an article back on PWInsider a couple years back. They'll bring it back up every year for WrestleMania, I'll show you it if I can dig it up or I'll wait until Mania comes.

DX haven't come close to Austin. Nobody in the history of wrestling has done bigger merchandise than Steve Austin.

Tommy you have absolutely no physical evidence to prove HBK is a draw. "men lie, but numbers don't" HBK has consistently crap number, his ratings as champion in 1996 are some of the lowest. Diesel aside, I can think of few champions during the 90s who drew as low numbers as HBK did. :rofl:

Oh and Vince credits Austin for reviving the WWF. If HBK was such a draw, then the WWF would never have needed reviving to begin with :owned:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 05:23 PM
Those were words coming from Kevin Kelley's mouth himself. It was an article back on PWInsider a couple years back. They'll bring it back up every year for WrestleMania, I'll show you it if I can dig it up or I'll wait until Mania comes.

DX haven't come close to Austin. Nobody in the history of wrestling has done bigger merchandise than Steve Austin.

Tommy you have absolutely no physical evidence to prove HBK is a draw. "men lie, but numbers don't" HBK has consistently crap number, his ratings as champion in 1996 are some of the lowest. Diesel aside, I can think of few champions during the 90s who drew as low numbers as HBK did. :rofl:Pea i'm not claiming anyone to be a bigger draw than Austin, i'm an Austin fan have defended hom many times about underated in ring ability :rofl:

I'm saying its not fair to judge HBK as a draw when WCW were on top cause no wrestler from history in HBK's position woulda beat them.

People claiming Brett to be a bigger draw than him because of what he done in his reign before WCW and NWO took off is foolish. Michaels carried a poor WWF roster on his own through that.

Lets not forget guys like Hogan and Savage were in WWF when Brett got on top :laugh:

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 05:35 PM
Pea i'm not claiming anyone to be a bigger draw than Austin, i'm an Austin fan have defended hom many times about underated in ring ability :rofl:

I'm saying its not fair to judge HBK as a draw when WCW were on top cause no wrestler from history in HBK's position woulda beat them.

People claiming Brett to be a bigger draw than him because of what he done in his reign before WCW and NWO took off is foolish. Michaels carried a poor WWF roster on his own through that.

Lets not forget guys like Hogan and Savage were in WWF when Brett got on top :laugh:

Austin took on the nWo, Sting and Goldberg from 1997-1999 and came out on top. If he'd have been pushed a few years earlier he'd have been able to beat the nWo. Not right off the bat, but it certainly wouldn't have gone 2 years without the WWF beating the WCW in the ratings that's for sure.

HBK is overrated as hell. He wasn't a draw in the 90s and he wasn't a draw in the 00s either. I don't doubt he's a fantastic wrestler but he quite simply has never had the following many of his contemporaries had.

If anything, HBK is like the world class boxer who needs to be in the ring with a named opponent in order for anything they do to draw.

HBK needed Hogan a few years back. He needed Triple H a few years back. He needed Bret Hart and Steve Austin a few years back. He needed Undertaker. You can't put Michaels at the head of your company and expect him to do big merchandise sales, draw huge PPV and TV figures.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 05:58 PM
Austin took on the nWo, Sting and Goldberg from 1997-1999 and came out on top. If he'd have been pushed a few years earlier he'd have been able to beat the nWo. Not right off the bat, but it certainly wouldn't have gone 2 years without the WWF beating the WCW in the ratings that's for sure.

HBK is overrated as hell. He wasn't a draw in the 90s and he wasn't a draw in the 00s either. I don't doubt he's a fantastic wrestler but he quite simply has never had the following many of his contemporaries had.

If anything, HBK is like the world class boxer who needs to be in the ring with a named opponent in order for anything they do to draw.

HBK needed Hogan a few years back. He needed Triple H a few years back. He needed Bret Hart and Steve Austin a few years back. He needed Undertaker. You can't put Michaels at the head of your company and expect him to do big merchandise sales, draw huge PPV and TV figures.HBK had closed the gap on Nitro in 97, Austin got the ball and ran with it. WWF winning the ratings wars had more to do with WCW creating stupid stories than WWF being so great.....WCW got dumb, WWF took over. Austin obviously crushed them when they were failing but its 100% fact that HBK kept them afloat and saved them from going under.

For that reason, HBK more than proved himself as a lead ME guy.

Vince and Jr have both said this.

Vince and Jr's word > Anyone in this thread.

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 06:23 PM
HBK had closed the gap on Nitro in 97, Austin got the ball and ran with it. WWF winning the ratings wars had more to do with WCW creating stupid stories than WWF being so great.....WCW got dumb, WWF took over. Austin obviously crushed them when they were failing but its 100% fact that HBK kept them afloat and saved them from going under.

For that reason, HBK more than proved himself as a lead ME guy.

Vince and Jr have both said this.

Vince and Jr's word > Anyone in this thread.

Vince and JR probably said that at a time when Bret Hart's relationship with the company was dead.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 06:26 PM
Vince and JR probably said that at a time when Bret Hart's relationship with the company was dead.Jr and Bret are great friends :laugh:

Face facts, Shawn was the glue that held the company together at its darkest time.

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 06:30 PM
Jr and Bret are great friends :laugh:

Face facts, Shawn was the glue that held the company together at its darkest time.

And what were The Undertaker, Bret Hart, British Bulldog, Sid Vicious and so on..?

Shawn wasn't the lead during this time. Most people associate the period of 1994-1997 with Bret Hart. Fact. :cop:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 06:39 PM
And what were The Undertaker, Bret Hart, British Bulldog, Sid Vicious and so on..?

Shawn wasn't the lead during this time. Most people associate the period of 1994-1997 with Bret Hart. Fact. :cop:Bullshit, Brets run is from around 93 to the start of 96. In 96 Shawn is the guy the WWE started to push. Shawn was being pushed months before The Iron Man match mid 96 and there after was the main event guy right through to Austin.

Those were all all the guys who shared Shawns ME status with him :laugh2:

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 06:51 PM
Bullshit, Brets run is from around 93 to the start of 96. In 96 Shawn is the guy the WWE started to push. Shawn was being pushed months before The Iron Man match mid 96 and there after was the main event guy right through to Austin.

Those were all all the guys who shared Shawns ME status with him :laugh2:

Shawn was just coming into the main event picture in 96. Something Bret had been apart of for 4 or 5 years prior to that. Bret was the man from 93-97. Austin took over after that. HBK was never the absolute man.. he was only ever on par with Hart but never above him.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 06:53 PM
dont forget bret was champ when he left to WCW.

Also,Shawn was a lot of things but the glue that held things together he was not, he freely admits himself he was a disrupitve bad influence back stage.I wont say he politiced his way to top because he has amazing ability but he sure as fuck wasnt the glue. The clique were a very real group who were out solely for themselves, not for the good of WWE.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 06:59 PM
Shawn was just coming into the main event picture in 96. Something Bret had been apart of for 4 or 5 years prior to that. Bret was the man from 93-97. Austin took over after that. HBK was never the absolute man.. he was only ever on par with Hart but never above him.No, Shawn was building up to ME status in 95. By the time he won the Rumble in 96 which was to go onto Mania, Shawn was the guy. Thats my era Pea, there aint nothing anyone can teach me about it :cop:


dont forget bret was champ when he left to WCW.No he wasnt, dont you remember the screw job? :cop:


Also,Shawn was a lot of things but the glue that held things together he was not, he freely admits himself he was a disrupitve bad influence back stage.I wont say he politiced his way to top because he has amazing ability but he sure as fuck wasnt the glue. The clique were a very real group who were out solely for themselves, not for the good of WWE.In the locker room, yeah. When it came time to perform Shawn was always on though. One of the reasons he's the GOAT.

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 07:11 PM
dont forget bret was champ when he left to WCW.

Also,Shawn was a lot of things but the glue that held things together he was not, he freely admits himself he was a disrupitve bad influence back stage.I wont say he politiced his way to top because he has amazing ability but he sure as fuck wasnt the glue. The clique were a very real group who were out solely for themselves, not for the good of WWE.

If the Shawn of the 00s was part of the WWF in the 90s then he would have stood a far better chance of becoming a superstar. Because he could cut a good promo nowadays, but back then he was nothing special.


No, Shawn was building up to ME status in 95. By the time he won the Rumble in 96 which was to go onto Mania, Shawn was the guy. Thats my era Pea, there aint nothing anyone can teach me about it :cop:

I've watched every single episode of RAW and Nitro from 1995-2001. And many RAW episodes from 1993-1995 too. I've watched it all. Michaels was never the guy in WWF. That's why he was such a bitch. Because Hart was, is and forever will be remembered as the man when he wanted to be the man.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 07:47 PM
I've watched every single episode of RAW and Nitro from 1995-2001. And many RAW episodes from 1993-1995 too. I've watched it all. Michaels was never the guy in WWF. That's why he was such a bitch. Because Hart was, is and forever will be remembered as the man when he wanted to be the man.Yet Vince says Shawn was the man he gave the ball to run with it. :owned:

Shawn in all the main events, Bret wasnt.

Bret was the man though :thumb:

Sweet Pea
01-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Yet Vince says Shawn was the man he gave the ball to run with it. :owned:

Shawn in all the main events, Bret wasnt.

Bret was the man though :thumb:

Of course Vince would say that. Bret screwed him over and left to the WCW.. he was bitter. That's why he did what he did at SS '97. Vince is a very bitter, cynical man. Bret screwed him over so for a long period (and to a certain extent, even now) he won't put Bret over like he does the guys who stayed loyal to him.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 07:57 PM
Of course Vince would say that. Bret screwed him over and left to the WCW.. He's not saying it because of this debate though, he's saying it because its true.

Who was in Most main events thru 96-97? The answer is HBK.

/Thread

Lenny
01-12-2011, 07:59 PM
the 3 WMs between 95-97 Shawn was main event for 1 bret was main event for 1 and they main evented against each other in 96 in the iron man match, shawn was no more main event than bret.

Vince gave bret a 20 year deal in 96 , bret was still very much the man.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 08:01 PM
Bret took about 7-8 months off during 96 tommy, so shawn going to be main event during that period. :cop:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 08:07 PM
Bret took about 7-8 months off during 96 tommy, so shawn going to be main event during that period. :cop:Yeah, after Mania he wasnt even wrestling....So why the fuck are we having this debate about who was the top guy? :rofl:

96-97 belonged to HBK.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 08:08 PM
because he came back and took back the belt :cop:

not sure really, ive maintained all along there was 2 guys bret and shawn who were at the top and still do. :cop:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 08:09 PM
great debate though :laugh:

Galway
01-12-2011, 08:11 PM
Vince gave bret a 20 year deal in 96 , bret was still very much the man.

And what happened next? :stir:

Vince backed out saying he couldn't afford to pay him, yet only a few months later he was able to pay Iron Mike millions for showing his face at Wrestlemania and counting to 3

My theory is that yes, McMahon thought he really needed Bret when the contract was signed. They had lost so many stars to WCW that he feared losing another losing another could sink the ship altogether. Then came Austin and his meteoric rise. Vince decided he could survive without Bret, his highest paid employee and let him leave.

hank
01-12-2011, 08:17 PM
who gives a shit

Lenny
01-12-2011, 08:19 PM
who gives a shit

really intelligent first post :hail:

E-DUBB
01-12-2011, 08:23 PM
:sad: what a bunch of nerds arguing about pro wrestling...i bet none of you guys ever get any..

from L-R galway(gray/black shirt) sweet pea(asian with the camera) stephen(making faces)
http://pwtorch.com/artman2/uploads/1/Wrestling_Fans.jpg

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 08:26 PM
because he came back and took back the belt :cop:

not sure really, ive maintained all along there was 2 guys bret and shawn who were at the top and still do. :cop:He won a vacant title when Shawn was out injured with a knee inury. Shawn forefited the belt :rofl:

As i said, i remember all that era and Shawn was the guy. Even when he wasnt booked to wrestle because of injury in the main event they had him as special guest ref or some shit like that :laugh:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 09:01 PM
Wrong shawn refused to drop belt to bret so got an "injury"

If u remember shawn u must remember beer always at top too :laugh:

Elephant Man
01-12-2011, 10:28 PM
People go on too much about who was the biggest drawer..Hogan and Austin were the two best but in the ring they were shite..Austin was shit in WCW & ECW because without good storylines he never had the ability to make himself big.
Flair wasnt a great draw compared to those two and neither was Bret but they shit on them two eaisly any day of the week.Same with Goldberg,another great draw at the time who was just shocking abysmal on the mic and in the ring.

Flair is the GOAT :hand:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 10:34 PM
I agree to an extent kurt, there is 2 types of GOAT, great in ring and decentdraw/mic while good in ring but great draw/mic and then theres the warrior, total opposite, shit in ring/shit mic massive draw. :laugh:

Its why its all about opinioons, some factor in drawing power, others dont. Its why its probably impossible to say who is the GOAT for definite :laugh:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 10:36 PM
Wrong shawn refused to drop belt to bret so got an "injury"

If u remember shawn u must remember beer always at top too :laugh:


Ha, thats nothing but tittle tattle like a lot of stuff about Shawn from back then. Do you remember Michaels on Raw with the whole "i lost my smile" stuff? That was real emotion being shown by Shawn because he was out. HBK dropped the belt to Sid back then and he also went out and jobbed to others including Nash and Vadar.

Micheals "Wasnt the man" but he has the longest title reign in the history of Raw from back then and longest in WWE in over 20 years (disregarding JBL's gimmick run on Smackdown of course)

Shawn gets all this crazy hate from Bret groupies but Shawns the one who was loyal while everyone around him sold out.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 10:38 PM
But Shawn really did refuse to drop the belt to Bret, their personal fued was well on the way at that stage, shawn was an asshole backstage, that aint titlle tatle but true.

HE was on the booking committe so it was logical, his long reign coincicded with Bret being off telly. :cop:

We could end this now if you give bret the credit he deserves :laugh: :thumb:

for the record, the rockers are one of my all time favourite tag teams :laugh:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 10:41 PM
People go on too much about who was the biggest drawer..Hogan and Austin were the two best but in the ring they were shite..Austin was shit in WCW & ECW because without good storylines he never had the ability to make himself big.
Flair wasnt a great draw compared to those two and neither was Bret but they shit on them two eaisly any day of the week.Same with Goldberg,another great draw at the time who was just shocking abysmal on the mic and in the ring.

Flair is the GOAT :hand:Guys like Hogan, Goldberg and Austin dont deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the greats.....We'd be aswell lumping Warrior in if that was the case cause Warrior outsold everyone for a period :laugh:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 10:42 PM
But Shawn really did refuse to drop the belt to Bret, their personal fued was well on the way at that stage, shawn was an asshole backstage, that aint titlle tatle but true.

HE was on the booking committe so it was logical, his long reign coincicded with Bret being off telly. :cop:

We could end this now if you give bret the credit he deserves :laugh: :thumb:

for the record, the rockers are one of my all time favourite tag teams :laugh:Who's your source on that, Bret? :rofl:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 10:44 PM
But without the likes of Hogan and Austin there is no WWE or global wrestling. I agree in ring they were no were near the level or Shawn, Benoit, HBK etc.. although Austin was far better than some give him credit for and pisses on Hogan etc.. in that regard but they have to be talked about with the greats without them the likes of Shawn, Bret would never of got the chance to perform if ya get me

Lenny
01-12-2011, 10:44 PM
Who's your source on that, Bret? :rofl:

whats your source Shawn ? :rofl:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 10:47 PM
But without the likes of Hogan and Austin there is no WWE or global wrestling. I agree in ring they were no were near the level or Shawn, Benoit, HBK etc.. although Austin was far better than some give him credit for and pisses on Hogan etc.. in that regard but they have to be talked about with the greats without them the likes of Shawn, Bret would never of got the chance to perform if ya get meDunno about that, wretling was around before them and it'll be around foir years after them. Piper made Hogan, Piper is a much better vote for greatness than Hogan.

Austin sold a lot, was decent in ring but he wasnt the best from back then either. Rockys over Austin.....Sold tons and tons, was great on the mic and was great in ring also.

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 10:48 PM
whats your source Shawn ? :rofl:'I'm not making the claims, you are. Its your job to back what you claim up :laugh:

Brets always been a bitch, a bit of a paranoid wreck. Even bible bashing Shawn who admitted he'd been an arsehole denied stuff that Bret had alleged over the years. Brets the biggest wanker in the history of wrestling.....Im,agine going to leave WWE and take the title to WCW, what a fuckin cock :laugh:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 10:50 PM
Nah never, Austin out sold everyone tom. Austin was savage on the mic too dude, Rocky admittably better in ring.

Hulk took wrestling to a global level, vince acknowledges this himself.

Austin, saved WWe and went on to be the biggest selling star in history, without him WWe go bang.

It aint about whether Piper was better, as ive already said, they will never go down in history are great in ring performers.

Lenny
01-12-2011, 10:53 PM
'I'm not making the claims, you are. Its your job to back what you claim up :laugh:

Brets always been a bitch, a bit of a paranoid wreck. Even bible bashing Shawn who admitted he'd been an arsehole denied stuff that Bret had alleged over the years. Brets the biggest wanker in the history of wrestling.....Im,agine going to leave WWE and take the title to WCW, what a fuckin cock :laugh:


Again, what proof you got of that, bret has said many many times he was never ever going to take the belt to WCW. Vince himself said he couldnt take the risk, your the ones whose saying it for defo he was talking it :laugh:

Yup, i got it from Bret, something that has never been denied.

Bret is far from the biggest wanker in history of wrestling, come on tom thats madness.

Galway
01-12-2011, 10:54 PM
People go on too much about who was the biggest drawer..Hogan and Austin were the two best but in the ring they were shite

Austin was not shit in the ring :hand:
Obviously he was no HBK or Bret Hart, but his matches were always entertaining.

The three Rock matches at Wrestlemania :hail:
3 stages of Hell with Triple H :hail:
SummerSlam 01 with Angle :hail:
Benoit in Canada 01 :hail:
Undertaker Buried Alive :hail:
Dude Love 98 :hail:
Kane King of the Ring 98 :hail:

And that's not even mentioning his classics with the Hitman :hail:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 11:06 PM
Again, what proof you got of that, bret has said many many times he was never ever going to take the belt to WCW. Vince himself said he couldnt take the risk, your the ones whose saying it for defo he was talking it :laugh:I dont care what Bret says, i believe Vince who is a very fair man.


Yup, i got it from Bret, something that has never been denied.So i take it you believe Bret when he talks about all the little closed door discussions that were going on with HBK and Vince then :laugh:

Bret was paranoid.....Most of his claims have been laughed at over the years. He was bitter Shawn was getting the main event push more than him. Bret is the only guy who we have proof on not wanting to put anyone over.


Bret is far from the biggest wanker in history of wrestling, come on tom thats madness.He's a tosser mate, admits not putting guys over, bitter Shawn was getting the main event push, taking the title to WCW. :rofl:

Bret screwed Bret :sad:

TommyGunn
01-12-2011, 11:08 PM
Austin was not shit in the ring :hand:
Obviously he was no HBK or Bret Hart, but his matches were always entertaining.

The three Rock matches at Wrestlemania :hail:
3 stages of Hell with Triple H :hail:
SummerSlam 01 with Angle :hail:
Benoit in Canada 01 :hail:
Undertaker Buried Alive :hail:
Dude Love 98 :hail:
Kane King of the Ring 98 :hail:

And that's not even mentioning his classics with the Hitman :hail:He wasnt shit but he couldnt lace Rockys boots :cop:

Lenny
01-12-2011, 11:17 PM
Let's just agree to disagree tom,we going in circles :laugh:

Same was said about hbk too though so unless we have unbiased accoubts we will never be able to agree on hbk and bret ?

TommyGunn
01-13-2011, 01:58 AM
Agree to disagree mate even though i'm right :stir:

Elephant Man
01-13-2011, 02:52 AM
:laugh:Anyone remember that Nitro when the WWF womens champ came on and dumped her shitty belt in the trash live on air??:rofl:I bet Vince was pissed

TommyGunn
01-13-2011, 02:54 AM
:laugh:Anyone remember that Nitro when the WWF womens champ came on and dumped her shitty belt in the trash live on air??:rofl:I bet Vince was pissedI never actually seen that mate :laugh:

Elephant Man
01-13-2011, 02:55 AM
I never actually seen that mate :laugh:

:laugh:Its shown on the monday night wars DVd..absolutely class..I really wish Bret did it when he was champ:rofl:

Sweet Pea
01-13-2011, 08:03 AM
Austin shit in the ring?! :rofl:

Steve was one of the best during his era. Pre-neck break he was a very good technician. Post-neck break he was the best brawler in the business. He's got 5 star matches to his name and some absolute CLASSICS.

Can't believe the idea that Austin was shit in the ring is even being thrown about. Absurd.

TommyGunn
01-13-2011, 12:06 PM
Austin shit in the ring?! :rofl:

Steve was one of the best during his era. Pre-neck break he was a very good technician. Post-neck break he was the best brawler in the business. He's got 5 star matches to his name and some absolute CLASSICS.

Can't believe the idea that Austin was shit in the ring is even being thrown about. Absurd.He wasnt shit in the ring but lets not make him out to be better than he actually was. He was no Benoit in there :laugh:

Elephant Man
01-13-2011, 12:56 PM
Austin shit in the ring?! :rofl:

Steve was one of the best during his era. Pre-neck break he was a very good technician. Post-neck break he was the best brawler in the business. He's got 5 star matches to his name and some absolute CLASSICS.

Can't believe the idea that Austin was shit in the ring is even being thrown about. Absurd.

He did a Lou Thesz press,some kicks,some punches and a stunner...I like the guy but lets face it in the ring he was garbage:laugh:

TommyGunn
01-13-2011, 01:10 PM
He did a Lou Thesz press,some kicks,some punches and a stunner...I like the guy but lets face it in the ring he was garbage:laugh:Who do you think rates higher between Austin and Rock Begz? :cop:

Elephant Man
01-13-2011, 01:17 PM
Who do you think rates higher between Austin and Rock Begz? :cop:

In terms of in ring abilty Rocky by a mile...he was a great athlete..I liked Austin but Rock as a heel was always better IMO,everytime he went on the mic he would make u laugh:laugh:

TommyGunn
01-13-2011, 01:29 PM
In terms of in ring abilty Rocky by a mile...he was a great athlete..I liked Austin but Rock as a heel was always better IMO,everytime he went on the mic he would make u laugh:laugh:Theres no comparison id say, Rocky takes a huge dump on Austin :laugh:

Elephant Man
01-13-2011, 01:39 PM
Theres no comparison id say, Rocky takes a huge dump on Austin :laugh:

:cop:Without Vinny Mac the stone cold angle wouldnt have been funny

TommyGunn
01-13-2011, 02:07 PM
:cop:Without Vinny Mac the stone cold angle wouldnt have been funnyAnd if it wasnt for HBK along with Bret, Austin woulda had no Mr McMahon to bounce off :stir:

Sweet Pea
01-13-2011, 06:04 PM
:rofl::rofl:

And there was me thinking you guys were students of the game. Austin was a master brawler and before his neck break he was an A- grade technician. He was fantastic at his peak.

If he was so shit, why did he produce so many classic matchups then? Because he was great in the ring.

Austin = wrestler of the decade (90s). One of the greatest of all time.

:hail: Steve Austin

TommyGunn
01-14-2011, 03:36 PM
As a huge Austin fan i cannot agree with Peas overrating of him :sad:

Elephant Man
01-14-2011, 04:14 PM
Mick Foley was involved in many classic matches in WCW/ECW/WWF but he couldnt wrestle for shit and I say that as a huge Foley fan,Flair said it best "Hes not a wrestler,just a glorified stuntman"

Sweet Pea
01-14-2011, 05:39 PM
As a huge Austin fan i cannot agree with Peas overrating of him :sad:


Mick Foley was involved in many classic matches in WCW/ECW/WWF but he couldnt wrestle for shit and I say that as a huge Foley fan,Flair said it best "Hes not a wrestler,just a glorified stuntman"

:rofl:

Come on guys! Austin could wrestle technically and brawl like a bastard. He was an A-level wrestler. Would you like me to make a poll on a wrestling forum just to highlight how many fans agree with me?

TommyGunn
01-14-2011, 06:19 PM
Austin has a lot of fanboys :sad:

Elephant Man
01-14-2011, 08:07 PM
:rofl:

Come on guys! Austin could wrestle technically and brawl like a bastard. He was an A-level wrestler. Would you like me to make a poll on a wrestling forum just to highlight how many fans agree with me?

Its pointless because hes loved so he will always get a lot of praise.
Benoit,Bret,Flair etc etc are A level wrestlers..Austin isnt in the same league as those guys.Without a good storyline no one cared for Austin..In WCW/ECW he was a nobody....

Sweet Pea
01-14-2011, 11:40 PM
In ECW he was challenging Whipreck for the world title. Heyman wanted to put the belt on him because he got over with his promos and ring work.

WCW he could have been somebody. He got over and Hogan didn't like it at all. That's why Hogan's buddy, Duggan, squashed Austin in a title match.

I'm not putting him in the same brackets as the guys you listed above but he was clearly a fantastic in ring performer. Its ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Sweet Pea
01-14-2011, 11:45 PM
Go to wrestlingforum.com

Click the 'general WWE' section and it should be there. My username is 'hitman 3:16'

Haven't read past the first page (because I'm on my mobile)

But everybody is saying how great he was. Not nuthuggers. Just know a great in ring performer when they see one.

/thread

Lenny
01-14-2011, 11:53 PM
said before, he was no bret, benoit, michaels who are special but he was very good in ring and rock dont come close to what stone cold achieved. and i was a huge rock fan. Austin had a good career prior to WWF, even it it did go tits up at WCW in the end, most in the business all say how good a worker he was.

you dont get 5 star matches when your shit in the ring, just dont happen.

Elephant Man
07-22-2012, 12:54 AM
Fuck gay ass Shaun and his boyfriend Triple H:owned:


Naitch shits on them both:galway:

TommyGunn
07-22-2012, 01:21 AM
Troll :hand:

HBK stole the show at another Mania this year :hail:

Elephant Man
07-22-2012, 01:22 AM
Seeing Lenny in this thread makes me sad. Hes vanished from Twitter:(

beatdown89
08-09-2012, 11:54 AM
Austin is the final word in wrestling. When he started to fade, so did the whole business of sports entertainment. He didn't have the technical ability of a Flair or Hart but let's be serious now, that is only about 30% of what the WWE/WWF is/was all about. It's about the entertainment value and what type of overall package an individual can bring. Austin was intense, fierce and even brutal at times (play acting of course) but he defined a post Hogan era, where there were no bright colours of roided up giants all trying to be the Hulk. Austin revolutionised the industry, with Micheals, HHH and the rest of the DX as very good support acts.

TommyGunn
08-09-2012, 11:57 AM
When he started to fade, so did the whole business of sports entertainment. WWE is bigger now than it ever was when Austin was around. Fact :owned:

What you meant to say was "after my hero Austin stopped coming out in his sexy black panties, WWE was never the same for me" :wave:

JimmyAfro
08-09-2012, 12:13 PM
What you meant to say was "after my hero Austin stopped coming out in his sexy black panties, WWE was never the same for me" :wave:

:rofl:

beatdown89
08-09-2012, 05:28 PM
WWE is bigger now than it ever was when Austin was around. Fact :owned:

What you meant to say was "after my hero Austin stopped coming out in his sexy black panties, WWE was never the same for me" :wave:

Maybe the WWE is financially bigger now, I wouldn't doubt that but I think you'll have to prove it to me. Fact is, Austin made the WWE watchable to a HUGE audience and brang in a new era. Currently, who do we have....John Cena? His the reason I stopped watching wrestling, and the whole "we're targeting a new, younger audience". Let's be honest, the quality which was present in the WWE 15 years ago is no longer there.

TommyGunn
08-09-2012, 06:54 PM
Not just financially bigger but also Globally. Cena generates over 100m a year on his own.

WWE is shit now I agree but the facts still remain.

Elephant Man
08-09-2012, 08:09 PM
Hogan and Naitch > Shitty Austin and gay Shawn :owned:

TommyGunn
08-09-2012, 08:15 PM
Warrior >>>>>

:woot:

beatdown89
08-10-2012, 11:16 AM
^^^Warrior was a jumped up coke head who thought he was too big for the business. Vince showed him :point:

Goldberg was awesome too, sad how he ended his career at the top though

TommyGunn
08-10-2012, 11:55 AM
How did Vince show him? Warrior left and walked into a bigger contract at WCW :laugh:

Warrior was a hothead who told Vince to pay him more or go fuck himself.....If he was a sneaky bastard like Hogan he would still be around today :sad:

:wankhail:Warrior never became a slave to Vince and still made a shitload of money

Elephant Man
08-10-2012, 02:08 PM
^^^Warrior was a jumped up coke head who thought he was too big for the business. Vince showed him :point:

Goldberg was awesome too, sad how he ended his career at the top though


Attacks The Ultimate one and then calls that big, useless lump in WCW who was a Austin tip off awesome:sad:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF4ZTcuhixc


:hail::hail::hail:Freak of NATURE


:rofl:2:05 is the angriest I've ever seen someone

Elephant Man
08-10-2012, 02:11 PM
:sad:This is why Benoit shocked me. I always thought Warrior would do that kinda shit. If that was reported on the news I wouldn't have batted an eyelid but Benoit?:sad:

TommyGunn
08-10-2012, 02:20 PM
It's the quiet one's you need to watch out for mate :laugh:

TommyGunn
08-10-2012, 02:21 PM
WWE have tried to get Warrior back on side several times over the years but he keeps telling em to go fuck themselves :laugh: