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Sweet Pea
03-02-2010, 03:30 PM
BERNARD 'The Executioner' HOPKINS
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/8/8c/Bernard-hopkins2.jpg

1988–201?
WBC Middleweight
WBA Middleweight
WBO Middleweight
IBF Middleweight
Ring Middleweight
Undisputed Middleweight
Ring Light Heavyweight (x2)
WBC Light Heavyweight
IBO Light Heavyweight

Bernard Hopkins is one of the best middleweight fighters of all time. His performances in the ring were as good as any middleweight ever. He was a patient, calculating, stiff punching fighter who was quick, clever and very capable. In addition to this he was never knocked out throughout his entire career and aside from his 1993 loss to Roy Jones, Jr. he has never been beaten without dispute.

Bernard lost the very first professional fight of his career in 1988; He lost for the second time in 1993 (to Roy Jones Jr.) and did not lose again until 2005 when he lost a disputed decision to Jermain Taylor. The career defining wins of Bernard Hopkins’ career was his stunning upset victory over the previously undefeated P4P champion, Felix Trinidad and his middleweight unification victory over boxing superstar Oscar De La Hoya.

Hopkins’ most impressive wins came against Felix Trinidad, Kelly Pavlik, Oscar De La Hoya, Glen Johnson, Antonio Tarver, Jean Pascal, Winky Wright, John David Jackson, Simon Brown, William Joppy, Keith Holmes, Lupe Aquino and Howard Eastman. As champion, he defended the title successfully 20 times

Bernard is destined to be inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame when he becomes eligible.

Upcoming bout(s):
Nothing Scheduled

Notable Wins:
Dennis Milton
Lupe Aquino <Post-Prime>
Action Jackson <Over the hill>
Glen Johnson <Undefeated>
Simon Brown <Over the hill>
Robert Allen (x2)
Antwun Echols (x2)
Syd Vanderpool
Keith Holmes
Felix Trinidad <Undefeated>
Carl Daniels <Post-Prime>
William Joppy
Oscar De La Hoya
Howard Eastman
Antonio Tarver <Post-Prime>
Winky Wright <Post-Prime>
Kelly Pavlik
Roy Jones Jr. <Over the hill>
Jean Pascal
Notable Losses:
Roy Jones Jr. <Hopkins Pre-Prime>
Jermain Taylor (x2) <Hopkins Post-Prime>
Questionable Wins:
Winky Wright
Questionable Losses:
Jermain Taylor
Joe Calzaghe
Questionable Draws:
Segundo Mercado I [Favor Hopkins]
Jean Pascal [Favor Hopkins]

'A' level wins:
Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya
'A-' level wins:
Winky Wright, Kelly Pavlik, Antonio Tarver
'B' level wins:
Action Jackson, Glen Johnson, Robert Allen (x2), Antwun Echols (x2), Keith Holmes, William Joppy, Howard Eastman, Jean Pascal
'B-' level wins:
Dennis Milton, Lupe Aquino, Simon Brown, Syd Vanderpool, Carl Daniels, Roy Jones Jr.

Point Total: 4 + 4.5 + 9 + 3 – 2.5 = 18


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Obama
05-31-2010, 11:09 AM
Resume updated and re-evaluated. Nasty code also cleaned.

Toney
07-10-2010, 01:20 PM
To the TS, when would you say the Hopkins prime started and ended?

Obama
07-10-2010, 01:25 PM
To the TS, when would you say the Hopkins prime started and ended?

'97 to '03

Toney
07-10-2010, 01:28 PM
'97 to '03
Thanks for answering. I remember he did look to be at the top of his game in the Johnson fight, he looked much better than that guy who stood in the ring with Jones

Max
07-10-2010, 03:19 PM
Despite his age, it's a tough call to say that Hopkins was past his prime when he lost to Taylor seeing as he had some of his most defining performances after this bout against Tarver, Pavlik and Calzaghe.
On the other side, Tarver fought Hopkins as IBO champion coming off consecutive wins over Jones and Johnson. The beat down Hopkins put on him is what ended his prime.

Obama
07-10-2010, 07:33 PM
Despite his age, it's a tough call to say that Hopkins was past his prime when he lost to Taylor seeing as he had some of his most defining performances after this bout against Tarver, Pavlik and Calzaghe.
On the other side, Tarver fought Hopkins as IBO champion coming off consecutive wins over Jones and Johnson. The beat down Hopkins put on him is what ended his prime.

Prime has nothing to do with in ring accomplishments. It has everything to do with what you've physically got left in the tank. Hopkins punch out put and legs were noticeably inferior from 2004 on. And by the Winky Wright fight, his legs were pretty much nowhere near what they used to be.

The Executioner
07-10-2010, 08:19 PM
Prime has nothing to do with in ring accomplishments. It has everything to do with what you've physically got left in the tank. Hopkins punch out put and legs were noticeably inferior from 2004 on. And by the Winky Wright fight, his legs were pretty much nowhere near what they used to be.

Yeah against Winky, Hopkins had zero springs in those legs...it looked like he showed better movement against Pavlik though, but they still weren't the same as a 2001-2004 Hopkins

Obama
07-10-2010, 08:26 PM
Yeah against Winky, Hopkins had zero springs in those legs...it looked like he showed better movement against Pavlik though, but they still weren't the same as a 2001-2004 Hopkins

Easy to look like you got decent legs against a man who doesn't know how to move his.

Toney
07-11-2010, 08:05 PM
Easy to look like you got decent legs against a man who doesn't know how to move his.
Whats your definition of a fighters prime?

Obama
07-11-2010, 08:29 PM
Whats your definition of a fighters prime?

Legs are the first to go so when they do, the prime is over.

Toney
07-12-2010, 09:24 PM
Legs are the first to go so when they do, the prime is over.
I noticed Jones's legs going during his fight with Harmon- a time when he was considered to be past prime

on topic: Who would you say was the most skilled fighter (defensively) out of these three:
Toney
Hopkins
Mayweather

off topic: when would you say Toneys prime ended

Obama
07-12-2010, 09:29 PM
I noticed Jones's legs going during his fight with Harmon- a time when he was considered to be past prime

on topic: Who would you say was the most skilled fighter (defensively) out of these three:
Toney
Hopkins
Mayweather

off topic: when would you say Toneys prime ended

Mayweather, Toney, then Hopkins. Toney's prime is hard to diagnose cuz he wasted it at McDonalds. Hard to differentiate betweens effects due to conditioning and effects due to diminished physical gifts. That said, it happened late in his Light Heavyweight stint.

lightsmac
07-13-2010, 02:19 AM
i think toney's peak came against mccallum I

Obama
07-13-2010, 02:22 AM
i think toney's peak came against mccallum I

Doug Dewitt / Iran Barkley fights come to mind for me.

Toney just moved up to SMW and wasn't as drained as before.

lightsmac
07-13-2010, 02:24 AM
well both dewitt and barkley fought like punching bags against toney. he beat a very good fighter when he beat mccallum the first time

Obama
07-13-2010, 02:30 AM
well both dewitt and barkley fought like punching bags against toney. he beat a very good fighter when he beat mccallum the first time

His punch output was still limited due to killing himself to make weight.

Toney
07-13-2010, 08:22 PM
His punch output was still limited due to killing himself to make weight.
I wonder why he decided to fight at such a low weight, why didnt he just fight at smw to begin with?

Toney
07-13-2010, 08:26 PM
Mayweather, Toney, then Hopkins.
I can agree with this order:)


Toney's prime is hard to diagnose cuz he wasted it at McDonalds. Hard to differentiate betweens effects due to conditioning and effects due to diminished physical gifts. That said, it happened late in his Light Heavyweight stint.
Thats a good point as well , which is why I find it hard to determine the exact time as well. Have you read a boxing book called The Dark Trade by Donald McRae it has a lot of info about Toney in it?

Obama
07-14-2010, 12:55 AM
I wonder why he decided to fight at such a low weight, why didnt he just fight at smw to begin with?

Beats me, guy used to be a 200 lb football player in highschool. But I reckon it's because SMW was a joke division while MW is a glamor division. It's the 2nd most popular division after Heavyweight historically.


I can agree with this order:)

Thats a good point as well , which is why I find it hard to determine the exact time as well. Have you read a boxing book called The Dark Trade by Donald McRae it has a lot of info about Toney in it?

Nah, never read that book.

Toney
07-14-2010, 09:50 PM
Nah, never read that book.
I highly recommend it. The writer spends a lot of time with Oscar, Jones, Toney , Tyson and Eubank from around 92-96

Toney
04-08-2011, 02:23 PM
'A' level wins:
Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya


How can these be classed as A level wins? Jones moving up to smw and beating Toney is a A level win, Hopkins beating DLH is no where near something like that


'A-' level wins:
Winky Wright, Kelly Pavlik, Antonio TarverThe Tarver win is a A level win, Hopkins moved up to beat the dominant lhw champion. Neither Winky or Pavlik did anything at smw-lhw so beating them there cant be considered great wins

'B' level wins:
Action Jackson, Glen Johnson, Robert Allen (x2), Antwun Echols (x2), Keith Holmes, William Joppy, Howard EastmanI agree with this part

'B-' level wins:
Dennis Milton, Lupe Aquino, Simon Brown, Syd Vanderpool, Carl Daniels, Roy Jones Jr.I agree with this, Jones shouldn't even be mentioned though


Point Total: 4 + 4.5 + 8 + 3 – 2.5 = 17


Whats the scoring criteria?

Obama
04-08-2011, 02:49 PM
How can these be classed as A level wins? Jones moving up to smw and beating Toney is a A level win, Hopkins beating DLH is no where near something like that

The Tarver win is a A level win, Hopkins moved up to beat the dominant lhw champion. Neither Winky or Pavlik did anything at smw-lhw so beating them there cant be considered great wins
I agree with this part
I agree with this, Jones shouldn't even be mentioned though



Whats the scoring criteria?

I see you're part of the "weight class means everything" neo historical revisionist thinking movement. It's a load of crap. A fighter being great is primary. His weight class is secondary. And none of the guys were even all that outside of their weight class. Hopkins fought DLH at 156. DLH was #1 rated fighter at 154 prior to a highly questionable loss to Shane Mosley. DLH is also a first ballot hall of famer who was in his prime at the time. And he was even in shape, something I can't say for James Toney in the Jones fight. But that shit I ignore for ratings anyways, not a fighter's problem if their opponent decides to show up out of shape.

Tarver would be an A win if he was in his prime. He wasn't.

And the criteria is here:

http://sweetboxing.com/showthread.php?t=289

And as washed up as Jones was I got no problem saying he's on par with Syd Vanderpool. I mean come on. Let's be serious here. He dominated Jeff Lacy didn't he? Danny Green is a level above Vanderpool.

Toney
04-08-2011, 03:05 PM
I see you're part of the "weight class means everything" neo historical revisionist thinking movement. It's a load of crap.
No, that's not true. I'm from the school of thought that believes a fighter has to prove himself in the division he moves into. For example the Haglers win over Duran only meant something because Duran gave him a hard time and Duran would go on to beat Barkley. Proving he could hang in that division.


A fighter being great is primary. His weight class is secondary. And none of the guys were even all that outside of their weight class. Hopkins fought DLH at 156. DLH was #1 rated fighter at 154 prior to a highly questionable loss to Shane Mosley. DLH is also a first ballot hall of famer who was in his prime at the time.
Its much better to go by the guys he beat in that weight class and he didn't really beat many top fighters. I dont know enough about Vargas but I was told he was never the same after that Tito loss


And he was even in shape, something I can't say for James Toney in the Jones fight. But that shit I ignore for ratings anyways, not a fighter's problem if their opponent decides to show up out of shape.
Toney was an elite fighter with solid wins at mw/smw and Jones beat him. Thats why I class it as a A level win.


Tarver would be an A win if he was in his prime. He wasn't.
Tarver has always been a bit of a hit and miss fighter, but beating him has to be classed as better than betting Tito or Oscar


And the criteria is here:

http://sweetboxing.com/showthread.php?t=289
Thanks


And as washed up as Jones was I got no problem saying he's on par with Syd Vanderpool. I mean come on. Let's be serious here. He dominated Jeff Lacy didn't he? Danny Green is a level above Vanderpool.
Hopkins-jones II, is the kind of fight you try to pretend never happened.

Obama
04-08-2011, 03:20 PM
No, that's not true. I'm from the school of thought that believes a fighter has to prove himself in the division he moves into. For example the Haglers win over Duran only meant something because Duran gave him a hard time and Duran would go on to beat Barkley. Proving he could hang in that division.

Duran doing well against Hagler along with the later Barkley win are irrelevant to how good a fighter Duran was at the time he met Hagler. Styles make fights. Some guys blow out their best opponents and struggle with some of their worst. It does not mean their worst opponents are actually good. And once again it's another case of stop looking at the damn weight class. Hagler was not a big Middleweight. He weighed in at 157.5 and Duran was just coming off dominating the undefeated and highly regarded Davey Moore at 154. It's just a few fukkin lbs. :))



Its much better to go by the guys he beat in that weight class and he didn't really beat many top fighters. I dont know enough about Vargas but I was told he was never the same after that Tito loss

Stop right there. All I needed to hear. DLH earned his #1 rating. He had the most impressive wins of anyone in the division at the time. Period.



Toney was an elite fighter with solid wins at mw/smw and Jones beat him. Thats why I class it as a A level win.

I agree. But I'd call him elite for his MW wins alone. No super middleweight win tops McCallum, Nunn, or Johnson.



Tarver has always been a bit of a hit and miss fighter, but beating him has to be classed as better than betting Tito or Oscar

The fuck it does. Tito and Oscar were in their prime are usually considered all time greats. Tarver on the other hand was past it and may or may not make the hall of fame.

Toney
04-08-2011, 03:59 PM
Duran doing well against Hagler along with the later Barkley win are irrelevant to how good a fighter Duran was at the time he met Hagler.
I think its very relevant, some fighters can make the transition to fight at higher weights, others can't. I'm of the belief you have to prove yourself in every class you move into, what you did in the lower weight classes is irrelevant


Styles make fights. Some guys blow out their best opponents and struggle with some of their worst. It does not mean their worst opponents are actually good. And once again it's another case of stop looking at the damn weight class. Hagler was not a big Middleweight. He weighed in at 157.5 and Duran was just coming off dominating the undefeated and highly regarded Davey Moore at 154. It's just a few fukkin lbs. :))
Davey Moore had only around 12 fights, why was he so highly regarded?


Stop right there.:D All I needed to hear. DLH earned his #1 rating. He had the most impressive wins of anyone in the division at the time. Period..
But rankings are relative, dependent on who is in that division. If I said Oscar was the no 1 ranked fighter in a division which had the likes of Hearns, McCallum, Duran etc thats one thing. But to be the no 1 ranked fighter in a division with the likes of Vargas, Mayarga etc is something else.


I agree. But I'd call him elite for his MW wins alone. No super middleweight win tops McCallum, Nunn, or Johnson.
True


The fuck it does. Tito and Oscar were in their prime are usually considered all time greats. Tarver on the other hand was past it and may or may not make the hall of fame.
Oscar was coming off a gift win over Sturm, while Tarver was coming off wins over the Jones* and Johnson
Tarver was fighting in his prime weight class, while Oscar was fighting 2 levels above his
Tarver's loss to Hopkins keeps him out of the hof. He lost to a mw who was coming off back to back losses. Im not sure If I agree with you on Oscar being prime. He was a couple of steps below that guy who outboxed Tito and got robbed
(*not sure how to grade the Jones win, he was coming off back to back ko losses)

Obama
04-08-2011, 11:36 PM
I think its very relevant, some fighters can make the transition to fight at higher weights, others can't. I'm of the belief you have to prove yourself in every class you move into, what you did in the lower weight classes is irrelevant

What you do in a weight division a few lbs south is always relevant. Don't be such a fool. You're basically sitting there and telling me if Sugar Ray Robinson didn't get beat by Carmen Basilio the first time his win over him wouldn't mean much. :)) And Basilio actually jumped a REAL weight class to do that (147 to 160). Jumping from a junior division to a full one is a god damn joke. Fighters that don't transition don't do it cuz they're too small. They fail for 1 reason alone. The division below was a weaker division than the division above.



Davey Moore had only around 12 fights, why was he so highly regarded?


Amateur Standout + look at who he beat in those 12 fights. I mean seriously why wouldn't he be highly regarded?



But rankings are relative, dependent on who is in that division. If I said Oscar was the no 1 ranked fighter in a division which had the likes of Hearns, McCallum, Duran etc thats one thing. But to be the no 1 ranked fighter in a division with the likes of Vargas, Mayarga etc is something else.

They're relative sure, but downplaying Bernard's win over Oscar due to weight for fighting the #1 guy in the JMW division in basically a JMW fight is pretty absurd. Your problem can't be with the weight. It can only be with Oscar himself. And I'm not going to bother arguing that he was a great fighter.



Oscar was coming off a gift win over Sturm, while Tarver was coming off wins over the Jones* and Johnson

Tarver was old, Oscar wasn't. Pretty simple really. Win / loss record don't equate to prime status. And Oscar was out of shape and fighting Sturm 4 lbs north of where he met Hopkins.



Tarver was fighting in his prime weight class, while Oscar was fighting 2 levels above his

You're confusing prime with optimal weight class. They are not the same.

Toney
04-09-2011, 11:58 AM
What you do in a weight division a few lbs south is always relevant. Don't be such a fool.:D You're basically sitting there and telling me if Sugar Ray Robinson didn't get beat by Carmen Basilio the first time his win over him wouldn't mean much. :)) And Basilio actually jumped a REAL weight class to do that (147 to 160).

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you only judge how well a guy does in a new division by how he performs against the fighters in that division. If Carmen Basillo jumped up to mw and was koed in 50 seconds, then I wouldn't class that as a good win for Sugar Ray Robinson, but if he moved up and gave a damned good account of himself then it should be classed as a solid win.


Jumping from a junior division to a full one is a god damn joke. Fighters that don't transition don't do it cuz they're too small. They fail for 1 reason alone. The division below was a weaker division than the division above.
I don't think Pavlik would make a solid smw-lhw, which is why he is still trying to fight at mw even though he has clearly outgrown that division


Amateur Standout + look at who he beat in those 12 fights. I mean seriously why wouldn't he be highly regarded?
I still think it was too early in his career to have a title


They're relative sure, but downplaying Bernard's win over Oscar due to weight for fighting the #1 guy in the JMW division in basically a JMW fight is pretty absurd. Your problem can't be with the weight. It can only be with Oscar himself. And I'm not going to bother arguing that he was a great fighter.
Who did Oscar beat to qualify as being a great fighter in the jmw/mw division?


Tarver was old, Oscar wasn't. Pretty simple really. Win / loss record don't equate to prime status. And Oscar was out of shape and fighting Sturm 4 lbs north of where he met Hopkins.
The fact that Oscar met Hopkins at 156 should tell you that he wasn't big enough to fight at mw and his abysmal performance against Hopkins basically proved that point


You're confusing prime with optimal weight class. They are not the same.
He was at his best at ww, he clearly slipped a step by the time of the Mosley II fight imo

Obama
04-12-2011, 10:29 AM
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you only judge how well a guy does in a new division by how he performs against the fighters in that division. If Carmen Basillo jumped up to mw and was koed in 50 seconds, then I wouldn't class that as a good win for Sugar Ray Robinson, but if he moved up and gave a damned good account of himself then it should be classed as a solid win.

Whether Robinson knocked his ass out in the 1st round or went life and death with him to win (which he did), it's a great bloody win. You just don't get it.



I don't think Pavlik would make a solid smw-lhw, which is why he is still trying to fight at mw even though he has clearly outgrown that division


He's not trying to make 160 anymore. Stay up to date.



I still think it was too early in his career to have a title


Um, he beat the damn Champion. He wasn't given the title on a silver plater. He didn't rob anyone to get it. How the hell was it too early? Last I recall he whooped the guys ass and knocked him out. He then went on to beat one of the greatest JMW Champions of all time in Ayub Kalule. But he wasn't ready to be Champion? :)) He was even a clear favorite to beat Duran.



Who did Oscar beat to qualify as being a great fighter in the jmw/mw division?


That's just retarded. Who did Pacquiao beat in the LW division to classify him as a great fighter? So he can't have been at his best in that division because he didn't fight anyone meaningful? :tsk:

But for the hell of it let me entertain you. He beat Vargas, who will make the hall of fame eventually, and he should have beat Shane Mosley, who will be a first ballot hall of famer. Aside from them in his other 2 JMW fights before Hopkins he beat a reigning and former world champion. 4 fights alone don't make a great fighter but when you've arguably beaten all of them, all world champions, 2 going to the hall of fame, I'd say it's not half bad.

See you're fukkin up bad on this. Aint nobody trying to rate DLH as one of the greatest JMWs. Fighters are considered great in weight divisions they reign in for a long time. DLH didn't spend much time there. The best fighter to ever live could fight in a division only 1 time. You can't call him great in the division but it doesn't change the fact that he was the best guy there at the time. Fighters are called great for what they do over an entire career. Fighters are considered elite for simply how good they are at any given time. And at the time DLH was a JMW going into the Hopkins fight, he was unquestionably elite. No rating publication dared to suggest otherwise.



The fact that Oscar met Hopkins at 156 should tell you that he wasn't big enough to fight at mw and his abysmal performance against Hopkins basically proved that point

Abysmal? :)) Lot of people thought DLH was actually winning the fight before he got stopped. He gave a damn good account for himself. He just succumbed to an even greater fighter. And the point about his weight is once again retarded. Who gives a shit about DLH's abilities at 160 when the damn fight was at 156? 2 lbs from a weight where he was considered elite. It's MEANINGLESS. Back in the old days before all these superficial junior divisions were relevant fighters jumped 10+ lbs all the time (and I do mean all the time) and people hardly made a big deal about it. DLH goes up 2 and you're crying. Come on. Hopkins was even willing to fight him at 154 if his titles weren't on the line. The 2 lbs were added for DLH's own personal conquest for glory.



He was at his best at ww, he clearly slipped a step by the time of the Mosley II fight imo

So when he lost to Mosley legit the first time he was at his best but when he should have beat him he had clearly slipped a step? =))

imported_Nothingman
04-12-2011, 11:02 AM
Tarver win is a B at best. He was so fucked up from having to go down from 218 pounds that he weighed filming Rocky Balboa, he could barely move. And its evident if you watch the fight.

Obama
04-12-2011, 11:10 AM
Tarver win is a B at best. He was so fucked up from having to go down from 218 pounds that he weighed filming Rocky Balboa, he could barely move. And its evident if you watch the fight.

Weight problems not factored in ratings. People got weight excuses all the time. That's what they usually are too, excuses. If you factor weight then you gotta look at ppl being sick and next thing u know it all the ratings are based off hearsay.

PS: Steve Cunningham told me he had the flu when beat beat Enad Licina. Won't read that anywhere.

imported_Nothingman
04-12-2011, 11:33 AM
Weight problems not factored in ratings. People got weight excuses all the time. That's what they usually are too, excuses. If you factor weight then you gotta look at ppl being sick and next thing u know it all the ratings are based off hearsay.

PS: Steve Cunningham told me he had the flu when beat beat Enad Licina. Won't read that anywhere.
So you think losing 43 pounds is no big deal for a fighter??

Obama
04-12-2011, 11:41 AM
So you think losing 43 pounds is no big deal for a fighter??

It's not like he had to do it in only a few weeks. He had time. Roberto Duran did it and went on to become world champion another 3 times.

Toney
04-13-2011, 06:27 PM
Whether Robinson knocked his ass out in the 1st round or went life and death with him to win (which he did), it's a great bloody win. You just don't get it.
So it doesn't matter if the guy does nothing in the new division, as long as he has proven himself in the division below that's all that counts for you?

If thats the case to be a great fighter all you have to do is target great smaller fighters from 2-3 divisions below you to get a great resume.


He's not trying to make 160 anymore. Stay up to date.
You said that some guys can't make the jump up because they are too small, thats why I picked Pavlik whose around 6'3. Who I doubt will be very successful at the higher weight classes. Too slow, too limited.


That's just retarded. Who did Pacquiao beat in the LW division to classify him as a great fighter? So he can't have been at his best in that division because he didn't fight anyone meaningful? :tsk:
Pacquaio moved into that division and beat David Diaz. This is the same David Diaz who needed a gift to beat shot Moarales. Would I class him as the top lw based on that win? No. But his perforemance in that fight established him as a major player, which is one of the points ive have been arguing.

As you said to be a great fighter is based on your overall body of work, which doesnt automatically translate that the fighter is the top fighter in all the divisions he competes in.


But for the hell of it let me entertain you. He beat Vargas, who will make the hall of fame eventually, and he should have beat Shane Mosley, who will be a first ballot hall of famer. Aside from them in his other 2 JMW fights before Hopkins he beat a reigning and former world champion. 4 fights alone don't make a great fighter but when you've arguably beaten all of them, all world champions, 2 going to the hall of fame, I'd say it's not half bad.
Mosley's and Vargas's drug use should automatically disqualify them from the ibhof. Both Ron Borges and Frank Warren who are on the ibhof voting comitee said they would never vote for boxers who have used drugs.

I cannot really see how beating them makes him a top mw. He needed a gift to beat Sturm and basically dived against Hopkins. His record at mw should be 0-2. Whats so great about beating a former sfw at mw, who lost both of his fights at mw?


See you're fukkin up bad on this. Aint nobody trying to rate DLH as one of the greatest JMWs. Fighters are considered great in weight divisions they reign in for a long time. DLH didn't spend much time there. The best fighter to ever live could fight in a division only 1 time. You can't call him great in the division but it doesn't change the fact that he was the best guy there at the time.
Whats does it mean to be the best in a division that's isn't very good? Ruiz and Hatton were classed as top 5 in their respective divisions at one point, which didn't stop them from being club fighters


Abysmal? :)) Lot of people thought DLH was actually winning the fight before he got stopped. He gave a damn good account for himself. He just succumbed to an even greater fighter.
He dived


And the point about his weight is once again retarded. Who gives a shit about DLH's abilities at 160 when the damn fight was at 156? 2 lbs from a weight where he was considered elite. It's MEANINGLESS. Back in the old days before all these superficial junior divisions were relevant fighters jumped 10+ lbs all the time (and I do mean all the time) and people hardly made a big deal about it. DLH goes up 2 and you're crying.

Hopkins fighting dlh at 156 only means he dried himself out a couple of more pounds and that by fight night he would be back up to lhw, 169-170 lbs.


So when he lost to Mosley legit the first time he was at his best but when he should have beat him he had clearly slipped a step? =))
Simple
1: He fought a smarter fight than he did when they first met
2: Mosley has never looked good at jmw. To buff, to tight. Tended to flurry then tie his man up and rest-most proberly used steroids to fight as high as jmw

A fighters prime depends on the their reflexes, just because your reflexes have slipped doesnt mean you cant still beat other top fighters

imported_Nothingman
04-13-2011, 07:06 PM
Hopkins taking on DLH was one of the dirtiest things in history. Only the very thought/idea of it, a guy who naturally weighs around 170-75 taking on a guy who had just moved up to mw. And then he beats him with a bodyshot. Only in America can it be glorified.

lightsmac
04-14-2011, 03:26 AM
Hopkins taking on DLH was one of the dirtiest things in history. Only the very thought/idea of it, a guy who naturally weighs around 170-75 taking on a guy who had just moved up to mw. And then he beats him with a bodyshot. Only in America can it be glorified.
thats why hopkins took it easy ya fool :lock1:

Obama
04-15-2011, 01:31 AM
So it doesn't matter if the guy does nothing in the new division, as long as he has proven himself in the division below that's all that counts for you?

When it's a matter of only a few lbs, yes. Granted I look at the quality of the divisions. If the division below is better than the one above then it should be no problem at all. When it actually has been problem the opposite scenario often tends to be the case.



If thats the case to be a great fighter all you have to do is target great smaller fighters from 2-3 divisions below you to get a great resume.

No, you have to fight elite fighters in the weight class they're elite at. If you beat them that makes you elite. If you then move up and are still in your prime, you're still an elite fighter. This wasn't questioned even before the fake weight divisions. Now that we have them and moving up in weight is the difference in taking a huge crap on the toilet, it just makes it laughable to suggest otherwise. MMA is where boxing used to be without these joke weight divisions, and their fans aren't crying about fighters being too small for their weight class like neo boxing fans do.



You said that some guys can't make the jump up because they are too small, thats why I picked Pavlik whose around 6'3. Who I doubt will be very successful at the higher weight classes. Too slow, too limited.

How Pavlik does at SMW will depend on his prime status, not his weight. It appears he honestly just doesn't have the hunger anymore. If he had the same intensity he did when he beat Taylor the first time I have no doubts he'd be at least as good as Froch @ SMW. Once again problem isn't the weight, it's what a fighter has left in the tank.



Pacquaio moved into that division and beat David Diaz. This is the same David Diaz who needed a gift to beat shot Moarales. Would I class him as the top lw based on that win? No. But his perforemance in that fight established him as a major player, which is one of the points ive have been arguing.


Dominating David Diaz doesn't say or suggest much. Pacquiao had to land like 10x the amount of power punches to accomplish what Kendall Holt did in 1 round less. Kendall was far from a great or even elite fighter. Pacquiao looking good at LW proved nothing. We knew he was elite for what he did in the lower weight classes. Remove what he did in the lower weight classes and Pacquiao doesn't get more than minor buzz for "dethroning" David Diaz.



As you said to be a great fighter is based on your overall body of work, which doesnt automatically translate that the fighter is the top fighter in all the divisions he competes in.

Correct but irrelevant to the above.



Mosley's and Vargas's drug use should automatically disqualify them from the ibhof.

:tsk: Too bad, they're going. Deal with it.



I cannot really see how beating them makes him a top mw.


It doesn't, it makes him a top JMW, which is where Hopkins fought him. Keep up.



He needed a gift to beat Sturm and basically dived against Hopkins. His record at mw should be 0-2. Whats so great about beating a former sfw at mw, who lost both of his fights at mw?

And your true colors shine through. Ignoring that he was out of shape against Sturm (and definitely won 5 rounds anyways), ignoring that he fought Hopkins at JMW, pretending DLH once being a SFW was relevant to how good he is at JMW, and having the audacity to suggest a conspiracy theory for the Hopkins fight. Really who gives a shit that DLH was once a Super Featherweight? Not like he could make that weight class by the time he fought Hopkins. Hell I doubt he could even make 147 without killing himself. Does is matter that Pacquiao was a Flyweight? When Pacquiao was Flyweight Champion and DLH was SFW Champion they were of comparable age. Is Pacquiao once being a Flyweight Champion even remotely relevant to his credentials as a Welterweight Champion right now? No.



Whats does it mean to be the best in a division that's isn't very good? Ruiz and Hatton were classed as top 5 in their respective divisions at one point, which didn't stop them from being club fighters

Ruiz and Hatton were much better than Club fighters =)). Nonetheless JMW division was actually better than the MW division at the time. You'd of been better off arguing Hopkins dominated a weak MW era. But instead you nitpick on guys moving up. Not Hopkins problem they were better than the people already in his weight class. :tsk:



He dived


:tsk:



Hopkins fighting dlh at 156 only means he dried himself out a couple of more pounds and that by fight night he would be back up to lhw, 169-170 lbs.

Hopkins weight draining himself made the fight harder, not easier. And there are plenty of Junior Middleweights who rehydrate that much. :tsk:



Simple
1: He fought a smarter fight than he did when they first met
2: Mosley has never looked good at jmw. To buff, to tight. Tended to flurry then tie his man up and rest-most proberly used steroids to fight as high as jmw

The 2nd DLH fight is the fight Mosley admitted to being juiced for. He was on steroids and EPO. The EPO was even better than the steroids as it improved his stamina. His records with Balco don't indicate he was juiced in the WW division. Furthermore while I agree he was too small for JMW you also have to concede he was too small for WW when he fought DLH the first time. He basically jumped from 135 to 147 for that fight, only taking 2 tune up fights at the weight against mediocre opposition prior to it, and he wasn't even impressive against one of them. Didn't stop him from whooping DLH's ass anyways though now did it? You know why it happened? Because Mosley was the better fighter, not the bigger fighter. It's not about the weight when there are small increments, it's about the talent and how much a fighter has left.



A fighters prime depends on the their reflexes, just because your reflexes have slipped doesnt mean you cant still beat other top fighters

....Duh? Random.

Obama
05-22-2011, 05:47 AM
Resume updated.

40oz
05-22-2011, 06:24 AM
I think he's definitely a top 40 ATG fighter. The man is freakin amazing. If he beats Dawson I'm done haha. I can't that much excitement.

imported_Nothingman
05-22-2011, 10:53 AM
I think he's definitely a top 40 ATG fighter. The man is freakin amazing. If he beats Dawson I'm done haha. I can't that much excitement.
:rofl: He won't beat Dawson, coz he's gonna find an excuse not to fight him.:rolleyes:

40oz
05-22-2011, 10:01 PM
:rofl: He won't beat Dawson, coz he's gonna find an excuse not to fight him.:rolleyes:

You should be laughing at yourself. Thats the only joke here. Still trying to discredit him after proving you wrong AGAIN. Now trying to make up more ridiculous assumptions. The only person who will be doing any ducking is Bute. Dawson-Hopkins will happen in the fall, bank on it.