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View Full Version : Top 20 Heavyweights of All Time - #14 Joe Frazier



Obama
01-12-2010, 04:57 AM
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/7/70/Frazier.jpg
Name: "Smokin" Joe Frazier



Born: Jan. 12, 1944
Died: Nov. 07, 2011 (Age 67)
Bouts: 37
Won: 32
Lost: 4
Draw: 1
KOs: 27
IBHOF Induction: 1990

JOE FRAZIER is a country boy who lived by the old country adage that: "when you go to the big party, you dance with the one who brung ya." In Frazier's case it was a left hook. But to classify Frazier as merely a "left hooker" would be like saying Marilyn Monroe was a blonde.

The son of a South Carolina sharecropper, he became a boxer by accident. He first went to a gym to work himself into shape. Shortly after, he began fighting competitively and became one of the best amateur heavyweights in the nation. He didn't lose until he ran into Buster Mathis, who decisioned him in the 1964 Olympic trials. But, Mathis suffered an hand injury and Frazier replaced him at the Summer Games in Tokyo and came home with a gold medal.

He turned pro under the guidance of Yank Durham in 1965 and ran off 11 straight wins until he ran into tough guy, Oscar Bonavena in September 1966. The Argentine dropped Frazier twice in one round, but "Smokin" Joe came off the deck -- showing the Madison Square Garden crowd the heart and character that would mark his career -- to win a 10-round unanimous decision.

After Bonavena, Frazier knocked out contenders Doug Jones (KO 5), George Chuvalo (TKO 4) and closed out the '67 campaign with a 19-0 career record.

With Muhammad Ali's exile from the sport, the heavyweight division was in disarray. While the WBA held an elimination tournament, Frazier was matched with his nemesis from his amateur days, Buster Mathis, for the New York State world title on March 4, 1968 at the Garden.

This time Mathis was not able to dance his way to victory over three rounds. A relentless Frazier wore down the bigger, heavier man, and stopped in the 11th round. From 1968-70, Frazier made six defenses, including a fifth-round TKO of WBA champ Jimmy Ellis in a unification fight. But in the summer of 1970, former champ Ali was granted a license to fight and the demand quickly grew for a showdown between the former undefeated champ and the reigning king.

In fall of 1970, Ali knocked out top contenders Jerry Quarry and Bonavena, setting the stage for the most anticipated heavyweight title fight since the Louis-Conn rematch of 1946.

Each fighter was paid the then-unheard of purse of $2.5 million. The build up to the fight was unparalleled in boxing history; transcending the sport -- and the sporting world. On March 8, 1971, before a sellout crowd at Madison Square Garden, the two waged one of the greatest heayweight battles ever. In the 15th round, Frazier landed perhaps the most famous left hook in history, catching Ali on the jaw and dropping the former champ for a four-count. At the end of 15 grueling rounds, Frazier got the nod from all three judges and left the ring as the undisputed champ.

But the fight took a lot out of Frazier, who didn't fight again the rest of the year. In 1972, he defended against two journeymen. His reign as champion ended in January of 1973, against George Foreman in Kingston, Jamaica. Foreman dropped Frazier six times before the fight was stopped in Round 2.

He beat Joe Bugner in his next fight, but dropped a 12-round decision to Ali in their rematch in Jan. 1974. He got back on the winning track to set the stage for a rubbermatch with Ali, who had since lifted the title from Foreman.

In the suffocating heat in Quezon City, just outside the Philippines capital of Manila, the two aging warriors dueled for 14 rounds in a bout Ali billed "The Thrilla in Manila." Ali took the early rounds, before Frazier found his rhythm in the middle frames and attacked the champs body with both hands. But Ali turned the tide for good in the 10th and won the next four rounds. By the end of the 14th both fighters were exhausted, but Frazier's eyes were nearly swollen shut, and his corner stopped the bout. Later, Ali said, "It was the closest I've come to death."

Nine months later, Frazier tried to fight himself back into title contention with a rematch against Foreman, but was stopped in five rounds. He retired following the second Foreman fight. Five years later he launched a one-bout comeback, but drew with a journeyman, Jumbo Cummings, before hanging up the gloves for good.


Source: http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/modern/frazier.html

---------------------

Resume Evaluation:

Notable Wins:
Oscar Bonavena (x2)
Eddie Machen [Over the hill]
Doug Jones *Light Heavyweight
George Chuvalo
Buster Mathis [Undefeated]
Manuel Ramos
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Jimmy Ellis (x2) [Prime in 1st] [Over the hill in 2nd]
Bob Foster *Light Heavyweight [Never proven at HW but prime top 10 ATG LHW]
Muhammad Ali [Undefeated] [Post-Prime]
Ron Stander
Joe Bugner
Notable Losses:
George Foreman (x2) [TKO 2] [TKO 5] *1st loss prime, 2nd loss over the hill
Muhammad Ali (x2) [UD 12] [RTD 14] *post-prime in both defeats
Questionable Wins:
Oscar Bonavena I

'A' level wins:
Ali
'A-' level wins:
Quarry (x2), Ellis I
'B' level wins:
Bonavena (x2), Machen, Jones, Chuvalo, Mathis, Ramos, Bugner
'B-' level wins:
Foster, Stander, Ellis II

Point Total: 2 + 3.75 + 7.5 + 1.25 – 5.5 = 9

*Note, counted second loss to Ali as a decision loss, considering it wasn't a KO/TKO, Frazier wanted to continue, and Ali was going to quit himself.


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Back to List (http://sweetboxing.com/showthread.php?t=1488)

Obama
01-12-2010, 05:26 AM
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imported_Nothingman
01-12-2010, 11:57 AM
I think Bonavena was an A- fighter when Frazier fought him. He has a good enough record (58 wins, 44 Kos) to be considered an A- too. His only clear losses in his prime were to Frazier the second time and to Ali. Patterson loss was disputed. He also beat Folley, Chuvalo, Leotis Martin, Davila, Mildenberger...

Obama
01-12-2010, 12:08 PM
I think Bonavena was an A- fighter when Frazier fought him. He has a good enough record (58 wins, 44 Kos) to be considered an A- too. His only clear losses in his prime were to Frazier the second time and to Ali. Patterson loss was disputed. He also beat Folley, Chuvalo, Leotis Martin, Davila, Mildenberger...

You might have a case if Patterson and Folley weren't both over the hill. Fact is the man never officially beat an A- fighter and has DQ losses to C level fighters. Had he got all his close decisions, his best win would have been a green Frazier and it still wouldn't have qualified him.

Sweet Pea
01-12-2010, 05:30 PM
Good fighter. Has a damn awful resume in comparison to a lot of the other top 20s.

Obama
01-12-2010, 05:51 PM
Good fighter. Has a damn awful resume in comparison to a lot of the other top 20s.

To his credit more than half of his fights came against quality opposition.

Toney
04-08-2011, 12:15 PM
I cant read it now, but I will save this page and read it later. Thanks for the info Obama

TommyGun7111
05-12-2011, 12:09 AM
how the hell are you going to count the second Ali loss as a decision loss if the guy got stopped even if he wanted to continue that doesn't matter

Obama
05-12-2011, 12:17 AM
how the hell are you going to count the second Ali loss as a decision loss if the guy got stopped even if he wanted to continue that doesn't matter

**** Ali, he was the only guy who wanted to quit after that round. Frazier just got unlucky. Really should be a Frazier win. Can only penalize the guy so much.

TommyGun7111
05-12-2011, 09:03 PM
**** Ali, he was the only guy who wanted to quit after that round. Frazier just got unlucky. Really should be a Frazier win. Can only penalize the guy so much.

Come on... I know you hate Ali but Ali's 2 wins over Frazier were completely legit. Fraziers eye was swelling badly and he didn't have good vision to begin with. Frazier even said himself that it's a good thing Futch stopped it. He said this recently in a fight night champion interview.

And the only reason you're saying Ali wanted to quit is based on that shitty documentary which was totally bias towards Frazier.. So I think a lot of that in the doc is just bullshit. We don't know if Ali would quit. We had seen him in wars and hellacious fights before in his career. Just makes no sense that he would quit THEN against his greatest rival. No sense. There was no quit in Ali and I'm sure he would push himself out there in the 15th round.. You're going by a stupid myth that these trainers said. Same thing as the Cooper fight. It's all BS.

Obama
05-13-2011, 01:12 AM
And the only reason you're saying Ali wanted to quit is based on that shitty documentary which was totally bias towards Frazier.. So I think a lot of that in the doc is just bullshit. We don't know if Ali would quit. We had seen him in wars and hellacious fights before in his career. Just makes no sense that he would quit THEN against his greatest rival. No sense. There was no quit in Ali and I'm sure he would push himself out there in the 15th round.. You're going by a stupid myth that these trainers said. Same thing as the Cooper fight. It's all BS.

Homie did you even listen to the post fight interview? Ali owned up to what the honorable Willie the Worm Monroe overheard. Cosell asked him if he could have continued if Frazier's corner didn't quit first and the man said NO. He has never come out and refuted this.

Furthermore only a sad Ali fanboy would diss the Thrilla in Manilla documentary, it's by far better than any Ali documentary ever made. :tsk:

TommyGun7111
05-13-2011, 02:38 AM
Homie did you even listen to the post fight interview? Ali owned up to what the honorable Willie the Worm Monroe overheard. Cosell asked him if he could have continued if Frazier's corner didn't quit first and the man said NO. He has never come out and refuted this.

Furthermore only a sad Ali fanboy would diss the Thrilla in Manilla documentary, it's by far better than any Ali documentary ever made. :tsk:

Yeah hes gonna give Frazier his props after all the verbal shit he did to him. After the wars he had with him. he also gave Marciano and other greats credit. Champions do this all the time.

How can you call that the best Ali documentary ever when it's basically bias and definitely a Frazier documentary? It revolved around one fight. That's it. Ali's career is so much more then that.

Obama
05-13-2011, 03:05 AM
Yeah hes gonna give Frazier his props after all the verbal shit he did to him. After the wars he had with him. he also gave Marciano and other greats credit. Champions do this all the time.

How can you call that the best Ali documentary ever when it's basically bias and definitely a Frazier documentary? It revolved around one fight. That's it. Ali's career is so much more then that.

I didn't say it was an Ali documentary, I said it was BETTER than Ali documentaries.

And wtf do props have to do with admitting you wanted to quit?

imported_Nothingman
05-13-2011, 03:13 PM
This makes a large part of Ali's legacy tainted...he shouldn't really won The Thrilla in Manilla, shouldn't won Norton III...only The Rumble in the Jungle achievement and the first Liston fight stay untainted.

TommyGun7111
05-13-2011, 07:29 PM
This makes a large part of Ali's legacy tainted...he shouldn't really won The Thrilla in Manilla, shouldn't won Norton III...only The Rumble in the Jungle achievement and the first Liston fight stay untainted.

It's controversy, I'll say that. But unless you magically take away the swelling from Frazier's eye you can't say he was just unlucky. Ali was winning the fight, he was ahead on points, and he was finding Frazier again and again with right hands.
Ali may have wanted to quit but one of Ali's best attributes was heart. He wouldn't have quit.
And Ali-Norton III was a close fight that was very hard to score, imo. one that i scored for ali.


I didn't say it was an Ali documentary, I said it was BETTER than Ali documentaries.

And wtf do props have to do with admitting you wanted to quit?
He wanted to quit but he wouldn't. there are plenty of instances where he could have quit in his career but he pushed on and got the win.

And what I meant was he was being modest. he just got through with a vicious war and he's gonna tell it like it is. He was making up for all the cockiness and shit talking that he did with
Frazier. because he didn't need to say that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32EI8Rn1yts

Obama
11-08-2011, 03:19 AM
Thread bumped in memory of a dead legend.

Died: Nov. 07, 2011 (Age 67)

imported_Nothingman
11-08-2011, 12:40 PM
People are stupid and know shit about boxing, so they will always kiss Ali's ass and worship him and they'll remember Frazier only as the first man to kick his hide. Which in itself isnt a bad way to be remembered, but he deserved more credit. He also was the first man to stop humongous Buster Mathis I believe and he beat Quarry twice and easily dispatched the skilled Jimmy Ellis. At his best, he was just unstoppable, like a pitbull. You were the ultimate warrior Joe, rest assured we will not forget that!:hail:

imported_Mr Burke
11-08-2011, 02:09 PM
Was looking at screen, trying to figure out what to say about the legend. Figured, I can't say anything meaninful, but he was one of the fighters that made boxing so popular globally.

Rest in peace, champion.

LobowolfXXX
11-08-2011, 10:11 PM
Max Kellerman had Jim Lampley on his radio show today, and asked Lamps for a definitive Frazier moment. I love Lampley, but I really thought he dropped the ball when he said the left hook that dropped Ali. I was actually going to pull over and call the show and sit on hold, and then Kellerman did it for me, bringing up not the Ali win, but the (first) Foreman loss. Frazier getting dropped six(!!) times in a round and a half, and getting up and dusting himself off every fuckin' time and ready to move back into the jaws of death. That's Frazier, defined in five minutes. Nobody thinks he was "the greatest," but he was pretty freakin' great, and he gave 110% every time. If he'd been born 20 years earlier, and Marciano 20 years later, it would have been Frazier who went down in history as the undefeated heavyweight champion. But he came along at the same time as two all-time greats, unlike Marciano, who got to fight blown-up light heavies and past-prime heavyweights.

And that undoubtedly contributed to his bitterness, that he's best remembered for the five fights against Ali and Foreman, four of which he lost. But greatness and legend really comes from epic battles, both wins (like Ali I) and losses (like Foreman I and the Thrilla). In going to all-out war five times against Ali and Foreman, Frazier earned more respect than he would have beating all the Don Cockells and 38- and 39-year old Jersey Joe Walcotts in the world. And my perception is that he made his peace with the losses, the insults, and the relative (to Ali and Foreman) lack of celebrity of the 70s' "big 3." I hope so, because true boxing fans know what a hell of a great fighter he was.

Obama
11-08-2011, 11:36 PM
Max Kellerman had Jim Lampley on his radio show today, and asked Lamps for a definitive Frazier moment. I love Lampley, but I really thought he dropped the ball when he said the left hook that dropped Ali. I was actually going to pull over and call the show and sit on hold, and then Kellerman did it for me, bringing up not the Ali win, but the (first) Foreman loss. Frazier getting dropped six(!!) times in a round and a half, and getting up and dusting himself off every fuckin' time and ready to move back into the jaws of death. That's Frazier, defined in five minutes. Nobody thinks he was "the greatest," but he was pretty freakin' great, and he gave 110% every time. If he'd been born 20 years earlier, and Marciano 20 years later, it would have been Frazier who went down in history as the undefeated heavyweight champion. But he came along at the same time as two all-time greats, unlike Marciano, who got to fight blown-up light heavies and past-prime heavyweights.

And that undoubtedly contributed to his bitterness, that he's best remembered for the five fights against Ali and Foreman, four of which he lost. But greatness and legend really comes from epic battles, both wins (like Ali I) and losses (like Foreman I and the Thrilla). In going to all-out war five times against Ali and Foreman, Frazier earned more respect than he would have beating all the Don Cockells and 38- and 39-year old Jersey Joe Walcotts in the world. And my perception is that he made his peace with the losses, the insults, and the relative (to Ali and Foreman) lack of celebrity of the 70s' "big 3." I hope so, because true boxing fans know what a hell of a great fighter he was.

Good post. Sadly though one of the lead writers over at BoxingScene recently called for Joe to be removed from the Hall of Fame. Worst yet the guy's boxing knowledge is actually pretty high. I figure he didn't account on Joe dying within 2 months of his comments though.

LobowolfXXX
11-08-2011, 11:59 PM
Good post. Sadly though one of the lead writers over at BoxingScene recently called for Joe to be removed from the Hall of Fame. Worst yet the guy's boxing knowledge is actually pretty high. I figure he didn't account on Joe dying within 2 months of his comments though.


It's not Frazier's fault that he came along at the same time as Foreman and Ali. Yeah, he was "only" the third-best heavyweight of his era, but that's not the way to fairly look at it; he was also third-best heavyweight in the 35-or-so years between Marciano's retirement and Holmes's ascension (though IMO, he would have had some matchup problems head-to-head vs. Liston).

Obama
11-09-2011, 12:04 AM
It's not Frazier's fault that he came along at the same time as Foreman and Ali. Yeah, he was "only" the third-best heavyweight of his era, but that's not the way to fairly look at it; he was also third-best heavyweight in the 35-or-so years between Marciano's retirement and Holmes's ascension (though IMO, he would have had some matchup problems head-to-head vs. Liston).

I rate Liston over him. I have a high opinion of the guys Liston beat. Besides Patterson there was Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, and Cleveland Williams, all of which could have won the Heavyweight crown in any era on a good night.

LobowolfXXX
11-09-2011, 02:00 AM
I rate Liston over him. I have a high opinion of the guys Liston beat. Besides Patterson there was Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, and Cleveland Williams, all of which could have won the Heavyweight crown in any era on a good night.


Liston & Frazier, in either order, have to be 3-4 from that era; no quarrel with either ranking, personally. But the point is, Frazier was certainly in the top 4, and arguably the top 3, heavyweights over a 35 year period, but he gets underappreciated because of the guys better over those 35 years came along at almost the exact same time he did.

imported_Nothingman
11-09-2011, 11:30 AM
It's not Frazier's fault that he came along at the same time as Foreman and Ali. Yeah, he was "only" the third-best heavyweight of his era, but that's not the way to fairly look at it; he was also third-best heavyweight in the 35-or-so years between Marciano's retirement and Holmes's ascension (though IMO, he would have had some matchup problems head-to-head vs. Liston).
Come on now, you cant seriously say Foreman was better than Frazier just because he was bigger and stronger and beat him, with the help of illegal tactics such as shoving. Foreman was all raw, crude power back then. Frazier was much better technically. And the proof of that is that he beat Ali, Foreman didn't.

Obama
11-10-2011, 01:29 AM
Come on now, you cant seriously say Foreman was better than Frazier just because he was bigger and stronger and beat him, with the help of illegal tactics such as shoving. Foreman was all raw, crude power back then. Frazier was much better technically. And the proof of that is that he beat Ali, Foreman didn't.

Frazier beating Ali is more about Ali than Frazier (if Ali was a power puncher Frazier would of got knocked out all 3 times). Frazier was just as 1 dimensional as Foreman. And with the dimensions they had Foreman beats Frazier 100 out of 100 times. One-dimensionality I usually frown upon, but in the Heavyweight division it's not nearly as important. There really aren't many complete Heavyweights. Joe Louis and Sam Langford come closest in my opinion. And Langford not really being a natural Heavyweight helped his cause a lot.

On the same token not really many complete fighters in any weight division...it's just especially thin at Heavyweight.

LobowolfXXX
11-10-2011, 06:04 AM
Ranking Foreman and Frazier overall is tricky because of the style clash aspects. Agreed that Frazier has a better chance against Ali than Foreman does. But put those three in an infinite round-robin and Frazier definitely comes in third. He does better against Ali than Foreman does, but as Obama said, he loses every fight to Foreman.