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Obama
07-19-2009, 06:59 PM
Got this thread idea from boxingscene, even tho I touched on it in my post yesterday. If everyone could post their personal lists that would be great, here's mine (which is haphazardly in order):

Harry Wills
Sam Langford
Joe Jeannette
Sam McVey
Peter Jackson
Jimmy Bivins
Joe Choynski
Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Ike Ibeabuchi

gran
08-18-2009, 03:29 PM
where are george chuvalo,henry cooper,oscar bonaventure,jerry quarry,tex cobb,ray mercer,earnie shavers,

Obama
08-18-2009, 05:29 PM
where are george chuvalo,henry cooper,oscar bonaventure,jerry quarry,tex cobb,ray mercer,earnie shavers,

You can make your own list, but of those guys I would only consider Mercer talented enough. Problem is he actually won a World Title, thus cannot make it.

Had Jimmy Young not been robbed by Ken Norton, I would have switched him in there and moved Ibeabuchi out.

Swami
08-18-2009, 05:32 PM
where are george chuvalo,henry cooper,oscar bonaventure,jerry quarry,tex cobb,ray mercer,earnie shavers,

The majority of that list is made up of solid contenders - nothing more. The list below features genuinely great fighters.

Sam Langford
Sam McVea
Harry Wills
Peter Jackson
Joe Jeanette
Joe Choynski

Those 6 are particularly crap cases. The colour excuse for 5 of those 6 is pathetic.. as for Choynski never winning the title - was that because he never pursued a shot or because he was ducked like the plague because he KO'd Johnson and drew with Jefferies?

Obama
08-18-2009, 05:53 PM
The majority of that list is made up of solid contenders - nothing more. The list below features genuinely great fighters.

Sam Langford
Sam McVea
Harry Wills
Peter Jackson
Joe Jeanette
Joe Choynski

Those 6 are particularly crap cases. The colour excuse for 5 of those 6 is pathetic.. as for Choynski never winning the title - was that because he never pursued a shot or because he was ducked like the plague because he KO'd Johnson and drew with Jefferies?

I think it's more so because he lost to the other top contenders and was also competing in 3 weight divisions anyways (Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, Heavyweight). He was a lesser version of Bob Fitzsimmons, who nearly knocked him out had police not stepped in in their official bout. These two also did a lot of exhibitions. Here's a description of the first 3 rounds:



Lardner (1972 p 104) described the Choynski-Fitzsimmons match as "friendly until the third round, when Choynski espied an opening and uncorked a terrific right to the point of Fitz's chin. Fitzsimmons fell down in a heap, a look of surprise on his face, and barely got up before being counted out."
Johnston (1936 p 105) wrote, “Choynski saw an opening that he couldn’t resist and trickily shot through one of his terrible rights to the point of the jaw. Fitz went down like a pole-axed steer …”

Source: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodge/6525/Article-JoeChoynski.htm

When he KOed Johnson, Johnson was green as grass. He had fought Walcott (a Welterweight and training partner of Johnson) a year before and got KOed himself. But, that fight probably should not have happened. He got injured either during or after a Pater Maher fight a week before:



Some stories have it that Maher damaged a couple of Joe’s ribs during the match. Other accounts say that as Joe was leaving the building after the contest, he slipped on ice and fell, injuring a shoulder and ribs. Whatever the case, he was scheduled to meet Kid McCoy the following week (February 23, 1900) at New York. Joe explained to the businessmen in the Big Apple that he could not fight because of his injuries but was told a “deal is a deal” and he must honor his contract. As it turned out, McCoy somehow got out of his end of the deal and Joe Walcott was substituted. This lighter opponent would not be as difficult, said the fight promoters, so Choynski agreed to go ahead with the bout.
It was a big mistake because, as small as Walcott was, he was an all-time great, a tremendous hitter, and tough as nails. He knocked Choynski down several times. Joe fought back as best he could with his disabling and painful injuries but was no match at this time for his stocky, 5’ 1” adversary.

gran
08-27-2009, 11:18 PM
The majority of that list is made up of solid contenders - nothing more. The list below features genuinely great fighters.

Sam Langford
Sam McVea
Harry Wills
Peter Jackson
Joe Jeanette
Joe Choynski

Those 6 are particularly crap cases. The colour excuse for 5 of those 6 is pathetic.. as for Choynski never winning the title - was that because he never pursued a shot or because he was ducked like the plague because he KO'd Johnson and drew with Jefferies?sam langford was over rated but he is the best on your list

Obama
08-27-2009, 11:25 PM
sam langford was over rated but he is the best on your list

.... Sam Langford is over rated why? The man fought the best of the best from Welterweight to Heavyweight, finding success in each division along the way. It's nearly impossible to over rate Langford. Reference this thread:

http://www.sweetboxing.com/showthread.php?p=3018

gran
08-29-2009, 02:37 PM
i did a little bit of homework and yes sam langford[i was thinking of someone else] should of been a champion he never got a fair shot,and i think george chuvalo should of been champ he almost was,close fight with ali,and he pretty much beat terrell:cool:

mickey malone
10-18-2009, 05:30 PM
I really like the old school list Obama, but it's mainly made up of fighters that didn't get there opportunities, simply because they were black..
However, history does suggest that all of them, especally Wills were very capable of winning the title..
Not to confuse the issue, I'll do a list of guys that did get their chance..


As the question says, never WON the title (KN)


1. Ken Norton
2. Gerry Quarry
3. Ron Lyle
4. Earnie Shavers
5. Jimmy Young
6. Oscar Bonavena
7. Gerry Cooney
8. George Chuvalo
9. Joe Bugner
10. Zora Folley

Obama
10-18-2009, 05:33 PM
I really like that list.. But it's mainly made up of fighters that didn't get there opportunities, simply because they were black..
However, history does suggest that all of them, especally Wills were very capable of winning the title.. Not to confuse the issue, I'll do a list of guys that did get their chance..

As the question says WON the title

1. Ken Norton
2. Gerry Quarry
3. Ron Lyle
4. Earnie Shavers
5. Jimmy Young
6. Ray Mercer
7. Oscar Bonavena
8. Gerry Cooney
9. George Chuvalo
10. Joe Bugner

Ken Norton and Ray Mercer were champs, even tho Norton got the title by Spinks failing to give him a title shot. It was pretty weird that they didn't have a fight for the vacant title...and just flat out gave it to him.

mickey malone
10-18-2009, 06:29 PM
Got this thread idea from boxingscene, even tho I touched on it in my post yesterday. If everyone could post their personal lists that would be great, here's mine (which is haphazardly in order):

Harry Wills
Sam Langford
Joe Jeannette
Sam McVey
Peter Jackson
Jimmy Bivins
Joe Choynski
Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Ike Ibeabuchi
I forgot to press multi quote earlier, but that really is some list, & it just shows how times have changed for the better.. All of those guys would stand a good chance against any of the fighters on my list..
The top 4 fought one another umpteen times, while the likes of Willard & Dempsey were shrouded in racist politics, and unable to defend against them.. This made the 20's a dull spell for the division, with Willard being brought in to get rid of the ageing Jack Johnson and Dempsey only defending against 7 white guys in 7 years..

Bivins was a light punching, but fleet fighter and capable of decisioning the best, much like the crafty Willie Meehan..
Machen came within a whisker to, against Patterson, I believe.. He also took a prime Liston the distance..
Peter Jackson often comes up on BS, I don't think he hit anywhere near as hard as Joe Louis, but he was a very slick technician who fought James J Corbett to a NC after some absurd amount of rounds, 61, I think..
Must learn a bit more on Choynski, I think he gave some of the above, a run for their money though..
Folley was an incredibly slick fighter to, equal in skill to Ali according to Ali himself.. I'd kind of agree, but his chin left a bit to be desired..
As for Ibeabuchi.. Green when he fought Tua to a draw, and had the potential to go all the way, but suffered from 'Red Mist' syndrome and fukked it all up.. A bit like Tony Ayala, If only!!!!

mickey malone
10-18-2009, 06:49 PM
Ken Norton and Ray Mercer were champs, even tho Norton got the title by Spinks failing to give him a title shot. It was pretty weird that they didn't have a fight for the vacant title...and just flat out gave it to him.
Won, meaning win in the ring against the current champ.. True, Spinks was stripped, and the title was awarded/given to Norton, he then lost a razor tight 15 rnd SD to Holmes.. For me, he deserved to be champ & would have easily beaten Spinks, but in reality was only a paper champ..

True.. Mercer was breifly WBO champ, so I'll replace him..

Obama
10-18-2009, 07:14 PM
In my opinion, Ringo & Chuvalo were B level fighters. Ringo does have the career defining moment in the first Frazier fight, but Chuvalo's career defining moment is a controversial win over Jerry Quarry, who isn't in the league of Joe Frazier, proven by Joe twice. George Chuvalo can't outrank Zora Folley, as a prime Chuvalo lost to a faded Folley. And Folley's resume quite frankly makes Chuvalo's look like crap.

mickey malone
10-18-2009, 08:42 PM
In my opinion, Ringo & Chuvalo were B level fighters. Ringo does have the career defining moment in the first Frazier fight, but Chuvalo's career defining moment is a controversial win over Jerry Quarry, who isn't in the league of Joe Frazier, proven by Joe twice. George Chuvalo can't outrank Zora Folley, as a prime Chuvalo lost to a faded Folley. And Folley's resume quite frankly makes Chuvalo's look like crap.

I have to conceed, it appears that I've underrated Folley.. Here's a rough guide using the best guys they went in with..

Chuvalo 5-10-0

Ali L x2
Williams W
Ellis L
Foreman L
Quarry W
Mathis L
Frazier L
Bonavena L
Terrell L
Patterson L
Jones W
Folley L
Durelle W
De John W

Folley 8-5-2

Mac Foster L
Bob Foster W
Bonavena L+W
Ali L
Mildenberger D
Chuvalo W
Jones L+W
De John W
Cooper L+W
Machen W+D
Valdes W

However, I'd say Chuvalo fought a lot less bums than Folley did, during their early careers.. He also had a much better KO resume than Zora & was only stopped twice as opposed to 7 times for Folley..

Obama
10-18-2009, 08:48 PM
Valid points, but Folley > Chuvalo clearly. I believe you agree?

Folley was so good Patterson ducked him like the plague. Patterson however did not duck Chuvalo, and handled him despite his questionable jaw and Chuvalo's "powerful punch".

mickey malone
10-18-2009, 11:14 PM
Valid points, but Folley > Chuvalo clearly. I believe you agree?

Folley was so good Patterson ducked him like the plague. Patterson however did not duck Chuvalo, and handled him despite his questionable jaw and Chuvalo's "powerful punch".

Yes, you've convinced me on that one.. Folley should be higher than Chuvalo..