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View Full Version : How Great Was Rocky Marciano?



AllTimeGreat
07-07-2009, 12:57 PM
I get a thrill reading boxrec. Where it says Marciano hit him, and his feet left the ground.

Just how powerful and great was he? And how bad was he early on?

Obama
07-07-2009, 03:03 PM
I get a thrill reading boxrec. Where it says Marciano hit him, and his feet left the ground.

Just how powerful and great was he? And how bad was he early on?


His power is over rated. But he was relentless and had pretty good precision punching, despite his often slow and wide shots. 3 things made Marciano great:

1) Stamina
2) Chin
3) Mastering his own unique technique

He was a pressure fighter, but not in the swarmer sense like a Jack Dempsey, Joe Frazier, or Mike Tyson. That style is suited for people with speed. Marciano didn't have that. So instead he developed a lot of awkward movements that actually made him difficult to hit clean and flush. His defense was under rated. Yet he still constantly pressed the action, so unless you were throwing some brutal combinations at him, he had you backing up. He's the kind of fighter that benefited from 15 round fights. He wasn't that hard to beat in a short fight, but eventually he would wear you down and get you out of there. His Suzie Q was a signature punch that would get the job done.

Early in his career Rocky wasn't very good. He was a pretty average amateur. A guy that if he never turned pro, you wouldn't remember his name if you saw him. And early in his pro years he was brought up slowly, against a LOT of bums. That was more than half of his career to be honest (he had a very short career). And when he stepped up his competition, the most notable opponents he beat were guys that had seen better days. Not to mention, he seemed to have avoided large Heavyweights.

Violent Demise
07-08-2009, 02:25 AM
He's not as great as people think he was. And i think he knew that. Which is one if the reasons I think he decided to retire. He had run out of past there prime great fighters to beat

Obama
07-08-2009, 03:17 AM
If he stuck around fights with Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, and Cleveland Williams would have been damn interesting.

I have them all beating him save Patterson, and maybe Williams. BUT, since it didn't happen, I still rate him a top 15 HW.

lol, forgot about Ingy. I guess he would have been ok too. Marciano also beats him, for sure.

eastwood
04-12-2011, 11:56 PM
I remember hearing in an interview from Roger M. that Rocky never fought a black fighter in his prime. They were all either over the hill or on their way out. I think him beating the Black Bomber was not a great accomplishment since the fight did not occur a few years earlier.

Obama
04-13-2011, 12:17 AM
I remember hearing in an interview from Roger M. that Rocky never fought a black fighter in his prime. They were all either over the hill or on their way out. I think him beating the Black Bomber was not a great accomplishment since the fight did not occur a few years earlier.

It's Brown Bomber, not Black Bomber. And the fight happened when it made sense to happen. Who the hell was Marciano at the time? All he had on his resume was a 1 dubious decision over Ted Lowry (not a rated fighter), 1 dubious decision over Roland LaStarza, and was just coming off an impressive win over Rex Layne (who was favored to beat him). If the fight happened years earlier Louis would actually have been favored to win.

Marciano literally didn't fight anyone relevant until 1950-03-24 when he got a split decision over LaStarza. He fought Louis 1951-10-26. How much earlier would it have been practical to take the fight? Keep in mind Louis didn't come out of retirement until 1950-09-27 when he fought Ezzard Charles. And he wasn't looking for up and comers, he was looking for big money fights. And his last title defense (1948-06-25) was against the #1 rated guy of the division who had a name (Walcott). At that time Marciano had a whopping 1 total fight to his name. :))

eastwood
04-13-2011, 12:39 AM
It's Brown Bomber, not Black Bomber.
:pound:

How much earlier would it have been practical to take the fight?
--Few years should be changed to few decades. But it wouldn't happen because Rocky was unheard of at the time.

ecto55
04-13-2011, 12:54 AM
I remember hearing in an interview from Roger M. that Rocky never fought a black fighter in his prime. They were all either over the hill or on their way out. I think him beating the Black Bomber was not a great accomplishment since the fight did not occur a few years earlier.

Well Louis had seen better days and shouldn't have been fighting, but I strongly disagree with Roger about the other black fighters Marciano fought, as I think the first Walcott bout was one of Jersey Joe's best performances.

Roger's probably 'trying' to emphasise that there were some excellent fighters out there in those era's who are overlooked, while Marciano gets plenty of credit and adoration being history's only retired as undefeated Hvy champ. But chipping away at Rocky's legacy isn't the way to go, and definitely not by underemphasising the abilities of those excellent fighters he fought. Ezzard Charles was probably as dangerous as he ever was when he ripped Marciano's nose off his face in their first fight. Roger needs to watch his Chavez fight again and learn some humility.

Some may say (and I guess Roger is..) that Joe was old and his career was about to end, but I disagree with that statement in so far as the quality of Marciano's win or Jersey Joe's performance. Jersey Joe had just won the title, and as aged as he was he was not any less effective for it, if anything like Archie Moore and the other craftsmen of those era's he seeed to become more comfortable and consistent within his style. Thats the unique thing about not having a boxing style based around you athleticism, as you age and your natural attributes disipate, your skills, experience, seasoning and knowledge remain.

And until I see otherwise, that first Marciano fight was the best display I've seen of Walcott- better in my view than what I've viewed of Louis-Walcott I, and its been a mission in life to track down as much Walcott footage as exists. I think there's only about 7 or 8 fights that have been filmed and remain in existence. Prior to 'that' punch of Marciano's, Walcott had knocked down (albeit flash) the iron-chinned Rocky, and could arguably have been pitching a near shutout..shifts, slides, pivots- the cakewalk and all the feints, leading and countering tricks were there, I really think Roger's doing Marciano and more importantly Jersey Joe a diservice to characterise that version of Walcott as over the hill or on the way out. Without Marciano and his brutal, take you to the well style Walcott would have, like Archie Moore, almost certainly have been bopping around for a few years to come.

Speaking of Archie Moore, look at Archie's career post Marciano- he was just coming off a win agaisnt Nino Valdez.

Obama
04-13-2011, 01:58 AM
Well Louis had seen better days and shouldn't have been fighting, but I strongly disagree with Roger about the other black fighters Marciano fought, as I think the first Walcott bout was one of Jersey Joe's best performances.

Roger's probably 'trying' to emphasise that there were some excellent fighters out there in those era's who are overlooked, while Marciano gets plenty of credit and adoration being history's only retired as undefeated Hvy champ. But chipping away at Rocky's legacy isn't the way to go, and definitely not by underemphasising the abilities of those excellent fighters he fought. Ezzard Charles was probably as dangerous as he ever was when he ripped Marciano's nose off his face in their first fight. Roger needs to watch his Chavez fight again and learn some humility.

Some may say (and I guess Roger is..) that Joe was old and his career was about to end, but I disagree with that statement in so far as the quality of Marciano's win or Jersey Joe's performance. Jersey Joe had just won the title, and as aged as he was he was not any less effective for it, if anything like Archie Moore and the other craftsmen of those era's he seeed to become more comfortable and consistent within his style. Thats the unique thing about not having a boxing style based around you athleticism, as you age and your natural attributes disipate, your skills, experience, seasoning and knowledge remain.

And until I see otherwise, that first Marciano fight was the best display I've seen of Walcott- better in my view than what I've viewed of Louis-Walcott I, and its been a mission in life to track down as much Walcott footage as exists. I think there's only about 7 or 8 fights that have been filmed and remain in existence. Prior to 'that' punch of Marciano's, Walcott had knocked down (albeit flash) the iron-chinned Rocky, and could arguably have been pitching a near shutout..shifts, slides, pivots- the cakewalk and all the feints, leading and countering tricks were there, I really think Roger's doing Marciano and more importantly Jersey Joe a diservice to characterise that version of Walcott as over the hill or on the way out. Without Marciano and his brutal, take you to the well style Walcott would have, like Archie Moore, almost certainly have been bopping around for a few years to come.

Speaking of Archie Moore, look at Archie's career post Marciano- he was just coming off a win agaisnt Nino Valdez.

Those guys putting on good performances is more a reflection of Marciano's shortcomings then their prime status. Every single last one of the hall of fame fighters Marciano fought was past it, no questions asked. Just cuz they looked good doesn't make them prime. Hell I don't think I've seen Shane Mosley put on a more dominant performance against a top opponent than what he did against Margarito. But it's beyond obvious to everyone around at the time that the man was well past his best. Same story with Marciano. At the time of these fights people didn't pretend the opponents were in their prime. Only revisionist historians have done so. They worship Rocky to a point where if anyone whoops his ass they must have been great and at their best. It's terrible logic. Hell Ted Lowry schooled him the first time and who the fuck was he?

Moore had been noticeably declining since the 5th Harold Johnson fight (Marciano even admitted this as he did the commentary for the fight), which he pulled a rabbit out of his ass to win. Moore never gave Johnson another shot at the title for a reason following that fight. Eventually they just had to strip him.

Charles had never been quite the same since he killed a guy, and was never the terror he once was at Light Heavyweight in the Heavyweight division. Fans often even complained about his style of fighting as a Heavyweight and refused to embrace him as the real champion after beating Walcott in the wake of Joe's retirement. Like Bernard is doing today Charles adapted with age. But only a fool would call a 40+ year old Bernard prime. As only a fool would call the Charles that fought Marciano prime. It would have made more sense for Marciano to have fought the guys that recently beat Charles rather than Charles himself (prime Valdes [avoided for being too big] and a prime Johnson [just too damn good to fight]).

Reality is best prime fighters Marciano fought were LaStarza and Layne and the fact that it took 2 tries to decisively beat one of them says a lot.

As for Jersey Joe, come on now. Hold old was this man, how long was his career? Seriously, the man was ancient. There's a reason Marciano was his last fight. Sure he came in with the title but the also past it Charles arguably should have won it back from him in their 4th fight. No one believed Walcott was prime since his loss to Rex Layne 2 years earlier.

Performance in any 1 fight doesn't indicate prime. If it did we'd have to call Erik Morales only a little past it following his debatable loss to Marcos Maidana. Reality however is Morales is WAY past it and Maidana simply isn't that good. Similar story with Marciano.

imported_Nothingman
04-14-2011, 10:53 AM
If he stuck around fights with Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, and Cleveland Williams would have been damn interesting.

I have them all beating him save Patterson, and maybe Williams. BUT, since it didn't happen, I still rate him a top 15 HW.

lol, forgot about Ingy. I guess he would have been ok too. Marciano also beats him, for sure.
Bull-shit! You have MACHEN and FOLLEY beating Marciano??!:)) He'd crush them both easily! As for Williams, he was a strong, big guy, but I don't think he'd be able to beat Marciano or cope with his pressure. We saw from his fights with Liston that if he failed to stop a fighter, he'd be stopped himself. He was not so durable. His style was wrong for Marciano. You forgot to mention that Rocky was PHYSICALLY STRONG. Machen and Folley would both fold or lose decisions at least. Johansson koed Machen in ONE round, remember?! Marciano was even better than Johansson, tho not by much.

As for that IDIOT Roger, he's a sorry excuse for both a boxing expert and a human being. So I don't put much weight into anything that fool says, ESP considering non-black boxers. He's a proven racist and a bigot. Cocksucker is just envious of Rocky's legacy. The man beat Walcott, Charles, Moore and Louis. Even if neither was prime, they were still great enough to be a good challenge for ANY boxer of that time!

Obama
04-14-2011, 11:17 PM
Bull-shit! You have MACHEN and FOLLEY beating Marciano??!:)) He'd crush them both easily!

Aging Marciano with back issues crushes prime Folley and Machen easily? Prime versions of these guys were better than the faded Charles, Walcott, and Moore that Marciano fought. Marciano struggled with both Charles (twice) and Walcott and was dropped by Moore. Yet Marciano crushes them easily? You know he struggled with Charles and Walcott because of their technical boxing skills right? Machen and Folley were ALL technical boxing skills. It's simply a bad style matchup. Machen I have no doubt wins on points. Folley could be well ahead and get caught at some point, leading to a stoppage. His jaw wasn't that great.



As for Williams, he was a strong, big guy, but I don't think he'd be able to beat Marciano or cope with his pressure. We saw from his fights with Liston that if he failed to stop a fighter, he'd be stopped himself. He was not so durable. His style was wrong for Marciano.

Williams was a 6'3 210lb+ man in his prime. Much larger than any credible fighter Marciano ever fought. The guys that knocked him out before he was completely washed up all had something Marciano didn't, speed. And to hell he wasn't durable. Look who knocked the man out? Not exactly regular punchers. By the time he fought Ali he was already shot, litterally, but still not quite completely washed up. He fought Ali at the peak of Ali's career, who many consider to be the greatest. No shame there. He was faded and the kid was just too damn fast.

And where the hell do you get off saying his style was wrong for Marciano? He was a much bigger guy with better handspeed and the ability to keep Marciano at the end of a long jab.



You forgot to mention that Rocky was PHYSICALLY STRONG.

p4p the man was a beast, as a Heavyweight his strength was nothing special. His selection of smaller heavyweight opponents tells you all you need to know.



Machen and Folley would both fold or lose decisions at least.


Lose decisions? The man could barely decision the faded Charles.



Johansson koed Machen in ONE round, remember?! Marciano was even better than Johansson, tho not by much.

Now you're just being a damn fool. What Ingo Bingo did on that day has to go down as one of the most absurd accidents of all time. First actually watch the damn fight and see how Ingo got the damn KO. Machen got stuck and was hit with over a handful of power shots after he was already down (supported by the ropes alone). 99/100 times Machen schools Ingo. His record shows he's more durable than that performance suggests. The man was only knocked out 3 times in his 64 fight career, 2 of which came in his last 3 fights. Of of those 2 was against Joe Frazier and it came in the last round. He also made it to the last round and the finish line against Jerry Quarry (beating Quarry when Machen himself was washed up), Cleveland Williams, and Sonny Liston. And he did damn well against each of them, yet these guys were murderous punchers.



As for that IDIOT Roger, he's a sorry excuse for both a boxing expert and a human being. So I don't put much weight into anything that fool says, ESP considering non-black boxers. He's a proven racist and a bigot. Cocksucker is just envious of Rocky's legacy. The man beat Walcott, Charles, Moore and Louis. Even if neither was prime, they were still great enough to be a good challenge for ANY boxer of that time!

Stop making to so obvious to everyone that you're a white supremacist, you will lose all credibility in this section. :tsk:

imported_Nothingman
04-15-2011, 09:21 AM
Aging Marciano with back issues crushes prime Folley and Machen easily? Prime versions of these guys were better than the faded Charles, Walcott, and Moore that Marciano fought. Marciano struggled with both Charles (twice) and Walcott and was dropped by Moore. Yet Marciano crushes them easily? You know he struggled with Charles and Walcott because of their technical boxing skills right? Machen and Folley were ALL technical boxing skills. It's simply a bad style matchup. Machen I have no doubt wins on points. Folley could be well ahead and get caught at some point, leading to a stoppage. His jaw wasn't that great.



Williams was a 6'3 210lb+ man in his prime. Much larger than any credible fighter Marciano ever fought. The guys that knocked him out before he was completely washed up all had something Marciano didn't, speed. And to hell he wasn't durable. Look who knocked the man out? Not exactly regular punchers. By the time he fought Ali he was already shot, litterally, but still not quite completely washed up. He fought Ali at the peak of Ali's career, who many consider to be the greatest. No shame there. He was faded and the kid was just too damn fast.

And where the hell do you get off saying his style was wrong for Marciano? He was a much bigger guy with better handspeed and the ability to keep Marciano at the end of a long jab.



p4p the man was a beast, as a Heavyweight his strength was nothing special. His selection of smaller heavyweight opponents tells you all you need to know.



Lose decisions? The man could barely decision the faded Charles.



Now you're just being a damn fool. What Ingo Bingo did on that day has to go down as one of the most absurd accidents of all time. First actually watch the damn fight and see how Ingo got the damn KO. Machen got stuck and was hit with over a handful of power shots after he was already down (supported by the ropes alone). 99/100 times Machen schools Ingo. His record shows he's more durable than that performance suggests. The man was only knocked out 3 times in his 64 fight career, 2 of which came in his last 3 fights. Of of those 2 was against Joe Frazier and it came in the last round. He also made it to the last round and the finish line against Jerry Quarry (beating Quarry when Machen himself was washed up), Cleveland Williams, and Sonny Liston. And he did damn well against each of them, yet these guys were murderous punchers.



Stop making to so obvious to everyone that you're a white supremacist, you will lose all credibility in this section. :tsk:
First of all, the Machen fight: the ref was to blame for not stopping the fight after the 2nd kd, Machen was all out on his feet by then. But the stupid ref let it go on and Ingo had nothing else to do than continue pounding at him. And second, PAY SOME RESPECT to Ingemar by AT LEAST not calling him names! And third, you turn ME into a white supremacist and racist just because I called a BLACK GUY racist?!? Sweet justice you deal, real sweet...